Foxwoods Tournament Floor Ruling: What Should I Have Done?

grandgnu · #1 07-27-2005, 02:45 PM

A few months ago I was in the Friday morning $100 tournament.

An experienced and larger-stacked player to my right raises from position in the CO. Blinds at 50/100 and I have about 1300 or so left and find A/K suited in the SB.

I push all-in. I had done this to him once before and he had laid down. And he had called another players push earlier with pocket 7's and ran into pocket Kings.

He deliberated for awhile, then he said "you win, your Kings are good". Then he said "I call" and pushed the chips for the call out. I believe this is an "angle-shoot"?

Anyway, I flopped an Ace and rivered a King, but he made his set on the flop, so I was sent packing. The dealer, after the completion of the hand, warned the player of what he had said.

Could I have gotten a floor ruling in this situation? And if so, would I have won his only his initial raise, or his call of my push as well, without a showdown of hands?

I'm heading down again this Friday morning, and want to be armed to the teeth with as much knowledge as possible, since I'm playing to win and I'll use any of the rules available to give myself the edge.

callydrias · #2 07-27-2005, 02:54 PM

As long as he didn't say "fold" or make any kind of mucking/forward motion with his cards, I'd say a warning by the dealer is the most appropriate action. Tough luck on the hand.

grandgnu · #3 07-27-2005, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As long as he didn't say "fold" or make any kind of mucking/forward motion with his cards, I'd say a warning by the dealer is the most appropriate action. Tough luck on the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, that's poker. I'm 3 for 6 right now, with two final tables, but nothing higher than 7th unfortunately.

That one was back in 2003 in their Tuesday night rebuy tourney, before I had done much studying of NL Hold 'Em. I just got lucky like a mofo I guess.

I got to the final table 4th in chips with 28K, but blinds were at 4K/8K, not much room to manuever. Like a donk, I limped with 10/J and faced a raise and push and opted to call, doh!

I'm hoping to redeem myself now that I've read HOH I and II, plus Mike Caro's book on poker tells. It seems that there are more experienced players in the morning tourney though, since most of the weaker players are more likely to play in the evenings after work. Thanks for your reply.

Randy_Refeld · #4 07-27-2005, 03:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
since I'm playing to win and I'll use any of the rules available to give myself the edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is often called angle-shooting. Poker is played for money, but anyone that attempts to use a rule for other than its purpose has no place in casino poker.

grandgnu · #5 07-27-2005, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
since I'm playing to win and I'll use any of the rules available to give myself the edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is often called angle-shooting. Poker is played for money, but anyone that attempts to use a rule for other than its purpose has no place in casino poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rule is to protect players from unsavory acts that give another player an edge, correct? If some player is trying to take advantage of unethical plays, why would I NOT use the rules to my own advantage?

When I made that final table back in 2003, I didn't understand all the rules, but there was a rules-lawyer there who made sure to use it to his and the rest of the tables advantage, against the chip leader.

I was in a pot with the King-high flush on the river against the chip leader, and he was last to act, on a paired board. He said something to the effect of "I have you beat" or whatever, an obvious tell (although at the time, I was too new to realize this)

This guy who wasn't even in the hand called the floor over, and the chip leader, who started with about 45K, was forced to sit out and post blinds and antes for 10 minutes because of this. With the jump in prize money from one spot to the next at a final table, especially when you move out of the last five places and into the top five or top three, and with blinds at 4K/8K and the chip leader only having 45K himself, why would you NOT take advantage of this?

In other words, I'd rather be called a p*ssy and walk out of the casino with 5 grand, then be called a "great guy" and walk out with 700 bucks.

Randy_Refeld · #6 07-27-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The rule is to protect players from unsavory acts that give another player an edge, correct? If some player is trying to take advantage of unethical plays, why would I NOT use the rules to my own advantage?

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually in these cases someone will call for the floor hoping the floor makes a wrong decision giving them an advantage. With experienced floor staff it won't work. IN the first example you asked if the player shot an angle; the easy answer is no he didn't. When a player's intention is clear and someeon tries to force him to do something else that is downright cheating; the floor should rule that the player's intentionis binding; some floors aren't so good and allow someone to cheat.

grandgnu · #7 07-27-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The rule is to protect players from unsavory acts that give another player an edge, correct? If some player is trying to take advantage of unethical plays, why would I NOT use the rules to my own advantage?

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually in these cases someone will call for the floor hoping the floor makes a wrong decision giving them an advantage. With experienced floor staff it won't work. IN the first example you asked if the player shot an angle; the easy answer is no he didn't. When a player's intention is clear and someeon tries to force him to do something else that is downright cheating; the floor should rule that the player's intentionis binding; some floors aren't so good and allow someone to cheat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't call Foxwoods floor staff "experienced". [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Guess I'm going to have to win by playing well AND getting lucky, geesh, that's hard! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Al_Capone_Junior · #8 07-27-2005, 07:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm heading down again this Friday morning, and want to be armed to the teeth with as much knowledge as possible, since I'm playing to win and I'll use any of the rules available to give myself the edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong approach. Rules are not used selectively to give yourself the edge, they're used to keep the game orderly and fair.

Until your opponent released his hand, it's still live. If he didn't say "fold" and didn't release his cards to the posession of the dealer, it's still live, and few floors would rule differently. Even IF they had ruled that his comment was equivalent to a fold, you couldn't have won any more than his initial raise anyway.

al

grandgnu · #9 07-27-2005, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm heading down again this Friday morning, and want to be armed to the teeth with as much knowledge as possible, since I'm playing to win and I'll use any of the rules available to give myself the edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong approach. Rules are not used selectively to give yourself the edge, they're used to keep the game orderly and fair.

Until your opponent released his hand, it's still live. If he didn't say "fold" and didn't release his cards to the posession of the dealer, it's still live, and few floors would rule differently. Even IF they had ruled that his comment was equivalent to a fold, you couldn't have won any more than his initial raise anyway.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm.......well, the dealer did warn him about his actions, but after the completion of the hand. Plus, different card rooms have different sets of rules, wasn't sure if anyone had experience with this particular circumstance at Foxwoods before.

But you are right, rules are there to keep the game fair. I just didn't care for his "you win, your Kings are good..........I call" stuff.

And I cared even less when I saw him hit his set on the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]