AQs flush draw from the SB

ClonexxSA · #1 07-15-2005, 10:29 AM

Reads :

Button is loose passive PF but gets a little aggressive post flop if he hits something. Likes to see a lot of flops and frequently shows down with top pair/weak kicker.

MP2 is also very loose, with a VP$IP of 80%. His post flop play is poor, and has shown many times he is willing to show down with less then top pair.

MP3 is another loose player, but very passive. Comes along for the ride most of the time. Cold calls a lot, hardly ever raises and plays a lot of hands. Only initiates betting with fairly strong hands post flop and calls down often with top pair/good kicker.

The flop is standard, very strong draw and 2 overcards, so I bet it.

The turn though, is where I am not sure of. Looking at it now, I should have lead the turn. I have a draw to the nut flush and a draw to a 4 card straight, though it's a little weak due to being beat by any 6. I should have bet this turn and after failing that, I think I should have raised it when it came to me for one bet.

The river I played horribly. I really have no excuse why I hit top pair and checked instead of betting. Should I have then raised when it got back to me? Would attempting a check/raise on the river here be better then just betting out? Button and MP3 both show that they have a good chance at betting at this river if I check, giving me the chance to raise.

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (10.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Button calls, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Edit : One of my points to this post also is that I think I may be playing my strong draws a little too weak. I almost always bet the flop on a strong draw, but if the turn doesn't deliver, I slow down to a crawl. I think I am missing bets this way....

Rosencrantz1 · #2 07-15-2005, 10:33 AM

Your own analysis (after the fact) is good. I mean, I think we all play hands in the heat of a game that we look back on and regret.

That said, the turn check doesn't bother me that much if you had C/Red. It was probably a questionable check since you have no evidence that you'll get bet behind, but given that you did check and it was bet, I think not raising is the biggest mistake in the hand -- you really lost a chance to protect your strong draw with that.

And I agree -- you should have absolutely bet the river.

tiltaholic · #3 07-15-2005, 10:42 AM

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you really lost a chance to protect your strong draw with that.

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uh. no. why do we want to "protect" a draw?

topspin · #4 07-15-2005, 10:43 AM

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That said, the turn check doesn't bother me that much if you had C/Red. It was probably a questionable check since you have no evidence that you'll get bet behind, but given that you did check and it was bet, I think not raising is the biggest mistake in the hand -- you really lost a chance to protect your strong draw with that.

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A check-raise is the last thing you want to do here. You're facing the field with two cold and "protecting" a hand that is just ace-high at the moment.

I don't think your inside straight draw is worth much -- you've got the sucker end of a one-card straight, plus you're splitting with any other ace even if no one has a 6. I'd assume you're basically playing for flush value alone and check-call like OP did -- not enough people in the hand to bet the turn for value even if they call call.

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And I agree -- you should have absolutely bet the river.

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Can you fold to a raise?

tiltaholic · #5 07-15-2005, 10:47 AM

an argument could be made for betting the turn, but i think checking and calling is ok too. if they appear to be as passive as you say (unless they connect with the flop) then i'd be more inclined to bet with this many outs.

i'd bet the river for sure.

topspin · #6 07-15-2005, 10:58 AM

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i'd bet the river for sure.

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Can you fold to a raise?

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I'm genuinely curious about this. When I bet this river I generally pay off a raise, but I don't think I've ever won when doing so.

tiltaholic · #7 07-15-2005, 11:05 AM

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i'd bet the river for sure.

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Can you fold to a raise?

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I'm genuinely curious about this. When I bet this river I generally pay off a raise, but I don't think I've ever won when doing so.

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if i bet this river here and a VERY passive player raised i would think he'd have 2 pair or better >90% of the time. but getting 1:15 or more on the call, would it be 94%?

ClonexxSA · #8 07-15-2005, 11:07 AM

If I had bet the river and gotten raised, I can say with certainty that I would have called it. I would have an idea that I may be beat, but theres no way at that point that I could drop this hand.

So for the most part, slowing down and check/calling the turn as I did is ok here?

Dieter01 · #9 07-15-2005, 11:10 AM

I would not fold to a raise based on

1. The chance of it being re-raised behind you is very slim.
2. I think your AQ will hold up a quite a few more times than the 15:1 odds you are getting.

edit: forgot to mention that I like the turn call, but as most say (including yourself) you should have bet the river.

car ramrod · #10 07-15-2005, 11:19 AM

I like a turn bet. We have over 15 outs, and noone has shown any strength so far except us.

You should not be in the habit of betting the turn with a flush draw, as our equity goes down, but with this flop, I think we have 6 outs to over cards as well. Also maybe an out or two for a 5.