Cutting Back the Spewing

[QTip]

I've been trying to refine some of my aggression lately. There are 2 areas that I've really noticed I've been spewing chips.

1. Overcards. Last week (or was it 2 weeks ago) I made quite a few posts about overcards. I think the discretion has served me very well. I'm interested to see what happens to my average bb/hand with AKo over a significant sample. Hardly any raising overcards anymore and no more bettting into huge fields UI without some more value than just overcards.


2. The other area is calling raises on the cheap street (the flop) to see what happens on the turn.

Here's an example:

You have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the small blind

1 EP limper, 1 MP limper, you complete, option checks.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

You bet, bb folds, EP calls, MP raises.

The MP player is 27/4/1

I used to just toss another sb in the pot in situations like this thinking about hidden outs, bdfd, etc. However, I think it's as pretty clear fold right there now.

I've been spending a lot of time refining my aggression. I spent a lot of time erroring to the side of spewing, which I don't think is all that bad. However, I think I'm getting to the point where I'm making better decision given opponents, board textures, etc.

Anyway...just some thoughts.

[brettbrettr]

If this were a raised pot you'd have to peel here. But I agree.

[bobhalford]

Good post. I suggest Ciaffone's "Middle Limit Poker" (which I've been reading lately) for a good treatment of the subject matter in your post. Sometimes you know it's the right thing to fold and you don't do it because you see that there are ways in which you can still win. I feel I chip spew in the same ways you are talking about, and reading this book with its quiz type format has been really helpful in elucidating these concepts.

[Argus]

Getting 8:1 with 3 outs to two pair, 1.5 outs for a backdoor flush and a generous 0.5 outs for your backdoor straight as well as hidden outs I think the flop is worth peeling. If you hit you'll get paid well on these obscure draws. Obviously no need to continue past the turn UI unless villain has a history raising here with less than an ace.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Good post. I suggest Ciaffone's "Middle Limit Poker" (which I've been reading lately) for a good treatment of the subject matter in your post. Sometimes you know it's the right thing to fold and you don't do it because you see that there are ways in which you can still win. I feel I chip spew in the same ways you are talking about, and reading this book with its quiz type format has been really helpful in elucidating these concepts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in the middle of the book, and it's been the thing to help me.

There's a fine line to be had between discretion/spewing - weak/selective aggression, and the trick is finding it in such a situational game.

[Bodhi]

I think you have outs to see the turn there, though you didn't tell us the size of the pot. If you did call the raise and caught a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], it would be +EV to see the river.

[Brain]

He's getting 8:1 (not counting the rake) to call the raise.

[SA125]

Excellent post. I saw a Clark response to a post from lil feller in mid-high about limping from EP with AKo in the right game and I thought it was on the money.

I've been thinking a lot lately about pf equity and how it relates to different hands. The nature of holdem is pf your first 2 cards equal 28% of your final 7 card hand. The flop increases it to 71% of your final 7 card hand.

I think getting your money in with the best of it is undisputable, on any street. But when that hand is A high or less, I think the equity aspect of it alone isn't as strong compared to made big hands, yet raising AK always seems to be taken as a given no brainer like AA is. There's a huge difference.

I realize part of the reason is the hand plays better in a smaller field, but hitting a good flop with AK or AQ in a mutli-way pot can provide a lot of bets when you haven't given your hand away.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting 8:1 with 3 outs to two pair, 1.5 outs for a backdoor flush and a generous 0.5 outs for your backdoor straight as well as hidden outs I think the flop is worth peeling. If you hit you'll get paid well on these obscure draws. Obviously no need to continue past the turn UI unless villain has a history raising here with less than an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 outs to 2 pair, yes. 3 outs to a winner, maybe not. I think giving yourself a total of 4 weighted outs here would be plenty generous already.

[joker122]

a read makes all the difference in the world here, but i can't think of one player where i'm not seeing the turn here.