Please help me with this QQ hand

SonOfWestwood · #1 07-13-2005, 12:11 PM

I seem to have major problems with hands like these. I'm not good enough to lay them down and I don't seem to know what to do throughout the hand to get a better idea of what I should do, and then I'm left with difficult river decisions. Plus, I've been waiting for a chance to get the CO's chips, and my anxiousness to do that may have also influenced the lame play of this hand.

Please comment on all streets and let me know what sorts of things you do and think about when playing a hand like this. I'm really looking for what sorts of things, if any, I can do and think about in the future to make playing, or folding, this hand easier in the later rounds instead of being faced with a difficult decision like I was.

CO's stats are 59%/22%/3.06/19%/48% 187 hands (probably 20-30 less at the time of this hand). His pre-flop raise means very little, as he raises things like 2 suited cards, 2 cards > 10, etc.

Hero: 44.95
CO: 77.21

All comments appreciated.

Party Poker NL25 (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
6 folds, CO raises to 0.85 (looked like he had the bet pot clicked), 1 fold, Hero raises to 2.5, CO calls 1.65

Flop: (~5 pot) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets 5.00, CO raises to 10.00, Hero calls 5.00.

I was thinking he may have had JJ or TT here, as I would have expected him to re-raise w/ KK or AA pre-flop, and I can't see him raising w/ 2 overcards.

Turn: (~25 pot) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 10.00, Hero calls.

Should I have put out a blocking bet here of ~10, and shut down if he calls, and fold if he raises?

River: (~45 pot) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 25.00, Hero ?? (I've got ~22.50 left)

Now I'm stuck. Nice situation I put myself in...

Ghazban · #2 07-13-2005, 12:22 PM

If you think he will be this aggressive with JJ-99, your line is fine. The ace on the end is not a scare card because its unlikely he's taken his line with AK. You need an excellent read at these stakes to lay down queens on this board. If you think you're good on the turn, you might as well put it all in there as I don't think you can fold the river.

Laomedon · #3 07-13-2005, 12:27 PM

What types of hands has CO been minraising your flop continuation bets with previously? That flop is pretty ideal for you, there is no chance CO has AA or KK. The only hands that you're realistically behind are A6 or 22.

This hand seems read dependent, if you think you're best on this flop why not c/r all-in on the turn? Or you could, as you suggested lead the turn then fold if you felt certain he had the 6. You played this pretty weakly as if you knew you were drawing to two outs on that flop. At the same time, I would think Villain's minraise indicates considerable strength unless he's putting you on overs and has something like 88 or 99.

You're pretty much committed on the river, I would call this bet and expect to see 77-JJ a high percentage of the time.

Ghazban · #4 07-13-2005, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...there is no chance CO has AA or KK. The only hands that you're realistically behind are A6 or 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not everybody on the planet 3bets AA/KK preflop. A6 and 22 are less realistic than AA and KK as they are usually not EP raising hands.

Laomedon · #5 07-13-2005, 12:36 PM

I actually didn't notice that CO originally raised. My bad. That certainly changes things substantially. At the same time, you could still discount AA or KK, although to a lesser extent. Now it seems much more like an aggressively played 1010...

ajmargarine · #6 07-13-2005, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (~5 pot) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets 5.00, CO raises to 10.00, Hero calls 5.00.

I was thinking he may have had JJ or TT here, as I would have expected him to re-raise w/ KK or AA pre-flop, and I can't see him raising w/ 2 overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, no sense in making reads if you aren't going to follow up on them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Villian's miniraise more times than not is his way of getting information from you in case you are making a continuation bet with a non PP hand. With this flop, you should be prepared to get your whole stack in, sooner rather than later. Reraise him to about $25, and push the rest on the turn if he calls you.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (~25 pot) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 10.00, Hero calls.

Should I have put out a blocking bet here of ~10, and shut down if he calls, and fold if he raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think you have the best hand it would be a value bet. You're concerned with 22 or 6x, and that's not too scary. Considering you just called behind on the flop, a check raise all in would have been nice here. I wouldn't be shutting down on this hand, but rather trying to get all my (and his) money in the pot.

You ended up playing this weakly, despite having a great holding with a good flop for you. I'm guessing he had Ax, and caught an ace to beat you. Be aggressive with your good hands and save yourself the headaches. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Laomedon · #7 07-13-2005, 01:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]

With this flop, you should be prepared to get your whole stack in, sooner rather than later. Reraise him to about $25, and push the rest on the turn if he calls you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reraise $25 would be kind of silly considering he had a stack of ~$40 going into the hand. I think either push his minraise or call and get it in on the turn either by betting out or c/r raising all-in.

TheWorstPlayer · #8 07-13-2005, 01:17 PM

I used to play this type of hand that way you played it. But now I don't. I no longer like to re-raise QQ OOP because then it is very hard to control the size of the pot. You end up having a marginal hand, but having to come out blasting on the flop into a pot which was already bloated preflop. And you really don't want to get 3-bet preflop, but some people will also trap with AA/KK preflop so you can't feel too confident when you don't get 3-bet. So I just call, c/c flop, c/c turn, bet river if he checked turn, usually. Or else just call all three streets if he bets the turn. Or sometimes bet river after calling turn. Depends on board, opponent, stacks, etc. But I prefer to try to control the size of the pot, starting with preflop, when I'm in this spot with QQ/JJ these days and think it is much better.

ajmargarine · #9 07-13-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, I would think Villain's minraise indicates considerable strength......

[/ QUOTE ]

If you purge this from your poker mind, your profits will increase. A miniraise is 2x your bet. Considerable strength is shown when you are raised 2.5x or 3x your bet. That is when you should be really concerned.

At these levels, the miniraise can be used:

--because the miniraiser doesn't believe you have a hand, and is using the minimal amount of money he can to try and push you off yours.
--because the miniraiser has TPGK and thinks that that is better than the junk that all the other fish at the table are playing, and forgets that you aren't a fish.
--because he is trying to get information from you. Are you making a continuation bet, or are you bluffing like all the other donkeys at the table? Miniraising is his default action to get info from you.
--because he is a fish
--because he is a donkey.
--because he is a maniac.

and last but not least:

--because he has a monster hand and is showing considerable strength.

I'm sure there are a few more that others can add; but, if miniraisers scare you and make you shut down and/or fold too much, that is -EV.

When good players miniraise, it's a cause for hesitation because they may be taking advantage of this miniraising epidemic at our levels, to get more money in the pot, when they have the best of it. I dislike miniraising, but do it from time to time when I want that automatic call that usually comes. When the bad to OK players miniraise, fear not.

SonOfWestwood · #10 07-13-2005, 01:27 PM

Is there any chance any of you could have gotten away from this hand? If so, what would it have taken? Or, to phrase it differently, if I could see him playing 22, 6x, JJ, TT, and maybe even 99 this way, can I find a fold in this hand, or do I have to get my money in eventually and believe that it is a +EV situation in the long run?