Donk bets on the Flop: usually draws or bottom pair

[King Yao]

Here's my understanding of the definition of a donk bet - if I have it wrong, please correct me:

A bet made by a player when he wasn't the aggressor on the previous street. So a donk bet on the Flop is a bet by a blind hand that called a pre-Flop raise.

It seems to me that the majority of donk bets on the Flop are drawing hands and/or bottom pair. Of course, some players will differ, but this is just the general case. Here are some Flops, and what I suspect the donk bets to mean by most players:

T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] : Most likely two hearts or a straight draw with 98, J8, 96, etc. Sometimes its with a deuce for bottom pair. With a T or a 7, they are much more likely to go for a check-raise.

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] : A straight draw with 87 or 98. Or a pair of 5s or 6s. I list middle pair on this Flop because its a low card.

Why do players donk bet? Because they aren't sure about their hand. They are afraid of missing a bet or they want to show a bit of strength. These players are afraid to check-raise with a gutshot straight draw, but will donk bet with the same hand. Why? Because the donk bet will give them more information if you call or raise. At least that's what I think their thinking is.

So how do to counter the donk bet by a player you suspect is donk betting with a draw/low pair (because he would check-raise you with top or middle pair)?

Call on the Flop, and raise it on the Turn, and check down on the River. Unless you have a real hand, then you can raise on Flop, and/or bet on River.

You are calling on the Flop because you want him to continue to semi-bluff on the Turn. You don't want to raise him on the Flop and have him check on the Turn. Let him see your weak call, and then pop him on the Turn. This way you allow yourself a free showdown (again this is if you have a hand like Ace-high or a low pocket pair) where you can beat a busted straight or flush draw. You can't bet on the River because these players are likely to call on the River with a pair. Also, just calling on the Flop gives you an opportunity to see the Turn for "free". If its another danger card, then you can actually safely bail.

Example:
Your hand: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Turn: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

If your opponent bets on Flop and Turn, you should fold. His donk bet has gotten there, either with a pair, a straight or a flush - and you don't have pot odds to call.

[BottlesOf]

I don't think it's a real gaybet/donkbet unless it's on the turn. But that's just me...

Good post though.

[mungpo]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's a real gaybet/donkbet unless it's on the turn. But that's just me...

Good post though.

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[Derek in NYC]

One factor missing in your analysis of the donkbet is the size of the field. A bet from EP into a largeish field is different from a donkbet HU.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do players donk bet? Because they aren't sure about their hand. They are afraid of missing a bet or they want to show a bit of strength. These players are afraid to check-raise with a gutshot straight draw, but will donk bet with the same hand. Why? Because the donk bet will give them more information if you call or raise. At least that's what I think their thinking is

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i dont like most of that - we arent usually talking about people who think about the game much at all

i broadly agree with what you suggest typical donk betters have got but i would add another category i see a lot of - ie the hand that they should of 3 bet with pre-flop or an otherwise strong starting hand - for example i often get donk betted by big aces that have missed - in this common instance the donk bet is a catch up

i think the common reason for me being donk betted is that the donk bettor wants to do something different - they are used to seeing me raise pre-flop and auto bet the flop and its a non sensical protest that this should happen to them again - i think in the hands of a crappy player it follows a pattern of one dimensional thinking - if they were serious about putting money in the pot a crappy player knows that its best to check raise

its great that you have been posting here again king - i read that you have written that book - where can i buy it ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[cartman]

At 5/10 there are lots of players who simply bet the flop everytime they catch a piece of it. Their donkbet on the flop may mean Ace high, middle pair, a gutshot, or quads. Like stripsqueez said, they aren't thinking much about the game. They are thinking "Hey, I flopped something!"

Cartman

[Lmn55d]

The main problem I have with the call the flop, raise the turn line in games like the 5/10 short on party is the fact that you will sometimes be 3bet by a worse hand and have to fold the best hand. In my opinion, this happens often enough that call/call/call becomes a superior line many times. Against a passive player, calling the flop and raising the turn is often superior.

[King Yao]

Good point. I was thinking heads-up for the most part...or 3 players max.

[King Yao]

[ QUOTE ]
i broadly agree with what you suggest typical donk betters have got but i would add another category i see a lot of - ie the hand that they should of 3 bet with pre-flop or an otherwise strong starting hand - for example i often get donk betted by big aces that have missed - in this common instance the donk bet is a catch up

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Yes! Excellent.

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its great that you have been posting here again king - i read that you have written that book - where can i buy it ?


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You are in Australia, right? If so, then probably online. I know several UK online sites offer the book, but I don't know about Australian sites. So the shipping cost may kill you [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[stripsqueez]

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You are in Australia, right?

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yep

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the shipping cost may kill you [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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i usually live in a very -EV manner so i got money to blow - tell me the sites

stripsqueez - chickenhawk