KJo hand (full ring!)

milesdyson · #1 06-29-2005, 11:43 PM

so i'm clearing a small bonus at Paradise, and i ran bad at the 5-max tables so i moved to the full ring 0.5/1 tables just to clear the bonus (i didn't want to have to bust and deposit more money).

read on UTG+1 (from an earlier hand): I had JJ UTG and raised. few coldcallers, and he 3-bets AKo. i call the 3-bet.

Flop QT8 two hearts, i check raise him and he 3-bets after everyone else folds. i call.

Turn is a blank, i check, he bets, i call. river gets checked through and MHIG. so i'm taking from that hand that he's overly aggressive. i'm not using PT so i don't know his vpip/pfr, but it's probably around 30/10.

here's the KJo hand:

ten handed table (pretty loose). i'm MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Preflop:
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, I call, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop (6 SB): J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
Checked to UTG+1 who bets, MP1 folds, I raise, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 3-bets ...

pot is now 15 sb. what should i do?

thesharpie · #2 06-29-2005, 11:55 PM

I would call and raise a "safe" turn. I think we're ahead of his range and might as well get in an extra SB, especially if he's on a flush draw with overs or something. I'd hate to be trey bet though.

Edit: Somehow I didn't notice SB and BB overcalled. If it was heads up I think he'd lead with something you beat but I'm not sure 4 way. Then again it's more important to raise the turn if we are ahead... I'm torn.

gharp · #3 06-29-2005, 11:58 PM

I think you should do what you can to get Messrs. SB & BB to fold. Cap it.

nomadtla · #4 06-30-2005, 12:02 AM

I hate to be one of those guys to you Miles but where'd MP1 go on flop. Anyways, I'd cap it. If he leads turn (safe card) check/call if he leads turn (ugly like a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) I'd probably drop it. If you improve fire back, he may be on UI overs or may just have a bad ego problem since you took him down though your estimation of him has him playing very little true donk crap. So I'd cap it and go to WA/WB on a safe turn.

milesdyson · #5 06-30-2005, 12:08 AM

MP1 folded the flop. either that or it was checked to MP1 and he bet. either way the post is edited to reflect him folding. the action stays the same (ie. two coldcallers after i'm the first to raise his bet).

Stuey · #6 06-30-2005, 12:20 AM

You fold as someone has trips or two pair or TPTK and your hand is unlikely to improve? I call the 3bet on the flop and check fold the turn UI. I as you know clearly suk. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

milesdyson · #7 06-30-2005, 12:22 AM

well one problem is that i can't actually check fold the turn. i'm last to act.

do you think i should fold to his turn bet if i don't improve?

milesdyson · #8 06-30-2005, 12:53 AM

my choice was to call the 3-bet and raise a harmless looking turn card.

i thought he could be very likely holding a hand that i beat (i thought he'd raise AJ preflop anyway). so i put him on KJ-J9 really, or two clubs, which based on the other hand i could totally imagine him throwing out a retarded turn bet with the unimproved flush draw.

i passed up a decent amount of value on this flop by doing this, however. because i could have immediately gotten 2 more sb out of both SB and BB. i didn't feel that capping the flop would leave me in a favorable spot on the turn. it seemed that multiple bets would only go in if i wasn't going to win the hand.

Nfinity · #9 06-30-2005, 01:20 AM

I thought about this for a while miles because I wanted to give you a good answer, so here goes:

Assuming that SB and BB are going to call whatever you do(fairly safe assumption) and that they won't pull any shenanigans, calling here, and raising a safe Turn is the best line IMO, for 2 reasons:

You may be forcing mistakes on the two players "behind" you on the Turn. Right now the situation is set up to offer only 6-1 on the Turn by calling here. By capping here you are setting youself up to offer 7-1. Your basically making it harder for middle and bottom pairs, not to mention those holding 2 OCs to get the implied odds they need.

You might also force UTG+1 to check to you on the Turn by capping. You already read from his previous hand that he has no problem Re-popping on the Turn with UI overs when you just call a 3-bet, but who knows if you cap it. You could be left offering 12-1.

If SB or BB decide to Bet the Turn on a fairly innocuous card,(non paired non [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) I'll overcall feeling behind, but I'm not sure what to do if UTG+1 raises that. The implied odds look alright drawing to 5 outs (assuming we are actually drawing to 5 outs) but I don't wanna get stuck in the middle of a raising war.

Of course if a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hits and anyone bets, I'm dropping it like my GF while the Sopranos is on.

That's my in depth analysis. Forgive me if I'm wrong about something. Just trying to be all that I can be.

milesdyson · #10 06-30-2005, 02:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You may be forcing mistakes on the two players "behind" you on the Turn. Right now the situation is set up to offer only 6-1 on the Turn by calling here. By capping here you are setting youself up to offer 7-1.

[/ QUOTE ]
kinda glad you brought that up, because there's a line that has to be drawn with each opponent.

against this player, if i choose to cap the flop and he bets into me again on the turn. i would really be overplaying my hand if i raise. he overplayed that one AK hand, but in all reality at least he didn't bet the river. he's not a blatant idiot. if i cap the flop, i don't think there's any way i can make SB and BB have to call two cold on the turn without having the losing hand a lot of the time, because i think even this overaggressive player is smart enough to slow down to a cap.

however, like i said before, it's very possible that he leads into me if i just call the flop 3-bet, and he'd probably lead into me with a lot of hands i beat.

that said, i called, SB and BB called. turn was an offsuit K and he checked to me. i bet, everyone called. river gave me a boat, everyone check called.