Wait for turn to raise?

akvsaq · #1 06-29-2005, 02:25 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
7 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

If you did wait for the turn to raise, what if you got 3 bet, how would you handle the situation??

flair1239 · #2 06-29-2005, 02:57 AM

On this board I think you are safe firing right away. That is if you were worried about extrcting value.

That said depending on the SB, I might be kind of worried that I am already behind.

I think if you are three-bet on any street in this hand, you probably need to enter call down mode. If the SB is typically passive, maybe you can get away from the hand. But against most players I am calling down a three-bet in this situation.

As it is I like how you played the hand. I don't think it qualifies as a WA/WB situation. (I am assuming that BB folded to SB bet on the flop).

Nick C · #3 06-29-2005, 03:00 AM

Did BB call all-in preflop?

akvsaq · #4 06-29-2005, 03:03 AM

Yes he did Nick. What if he didn't, would you wait for the turn then? And what if 3 bet on turn??

flair1239 · #5 06-29-2005, 03:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes he did Nick. What if he didn't, would you wait for the turn then? And what if 3 bet on turn??

[/ QUOTE ]

If BB was still live and called SB flop bet, then I probably would wait for the turn to raise a blank. I am assuming reasonable players here. If they are both donks, I might do it differently.

The response to a turn 3-bet, depends on where it comes from and what card has fallen.

Nick C · #6 06-29-2005, 03:32 AM

If this weren't a blind-steal situation, I'd probably just call the whole way, because I've grown to respect preflop 3-bets quite a bit through Party 3/6, and this is a spot where, despite the two-flush and gutshot possibilities, you are pretty far ahead or behind (and you don't know which) most standard 3-betting hands, and you aren't really a favorite over the standard 3-betting range (especially if that range happens to include AQ).

However, this is a blind-steal situation, and if SB is adjusting to that, you probably want to get a value-raise in somewhere. One danger of raising, though, is it does invite SB to dump 88, for instance, if that's what he has, when he possibly would have kept betting with it otherwise. Also, you could get called and then checkraised on the turn, if he has a big hand. I guess you could consider folding to that (unless you had picked up a draw), but then that's not so great if SB defends aggressively and could have A9 (or could be check-raise semi-bluffing KQ).

Ugh. Actually, I think call, call, calling might be what I'd do (while betting if checked to on any street). Raising the turn would get more bets in, so long as he'll call down, but it does kind of represent the top-pair hand you actually have, which isn't so great if Villain will lay down 88 (and would have bet it on the river or check-called the river with it otherwise).

One place to consider getting a raise in, actually, is the river, where it will be harder for SB to find a 3-bet with AQ, as it may look to him like you slowplayed AK or TT.

Anyway, though, if BB weren't all-in and he called the flop, I think I would raise. I'm not sure if I like doing so better on the flop or turn, really. BB may just be peeling one on the flop, in which case that would be a good time to get a raise in. But if he has a decent draw and is committed to going to the river, then my edge over him would be greater on the turn. (On the other hand, if SB has a worse hand, he might get scared after getting called on the flop twice and check the turn, which would spoil the wait-until-the-turn plan. And if he has a better hand, he might 3-bet, though your turn raise would represent more strength than a flop raise would have.)

Anyway, these decisions can get complicated, and I have trouble figuring out what to do sometimes.

Edit: I just read Flair's latest post in this thread and I thought I should add that in most of what I wrote here I was assuming turn and river blanks.

akvsaq · #7 06-29-2005, 03:36 AM

Flair, thanks for your reply. What if its 3 bet, and a loose-passive made it 3 on the turn w/ no possible draws? Does it change thinks if say the flush card came? I think either way you are probably beat by a loose-passive 3 bettor on turn. NOW, what if it came from a loose-aggressive?? Would you call it in any case no matter what? He could have just about anything. Pair plus flush draw for example... I find it difficult to handle loose aggressives! Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

akvsaq · #8 06-29-2005, 03:48 AM

Nick, what if I did decide to raise the river. In a lot of situations where I catch say TPTK, and I'm HU and he bets into me, I just call all the way and raise the river. You think its a insta-fold in most cases when you get 3 bet on river??

Nick C · #9 06-29-2005, 04:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Nick, what if I did decide to raise the river. In a lot of situations where I catch say TPTK, and I'm HU and he bets into me, I just call all the way and raise the river. You think its a insta-fold in most cases when you get 3 bet on river??

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is in this case, since Villain also may have made trips, and his could be worse than yours (if he's defending his SB aggressively preflop).

More generally, I'm not sure what the answer is. The wait-until-the-river-to-raise play is one I've only recently added to my repertoire (partly this was my reaction to having trouble getting paid off with good hands on Party 3/6), and I don't have much actual experience with it.

I have a vague recollection of getting 3-bet once recently when using this line and then stubbornly calling and then (to my surprise) winning the pot. (I don't remember the specifics, so I can't look the hand up.) I have some doubts about that being typical, but at the point where you're getting 3-bet on the river, the pot will have gotten big enough that you don't have to be good all that often for calling to be okay. There is some chance people get annoyed with your river raise and 3-bet you out of frustration sometimes, or maybe on occasion they suspect a bluff-raise with a hand you wanted to show down and are trying to punish you when they 3-bet. The raise does represent a trap, and people do let their egos get involved when playing poker sometimes.

Anyway, I guess the short answer is: I don't know. Maybe someone with more practical experience with the line will join the thread. I do know that when I wait until the river to raise, I'm generally hoping not to get 3-bet. (With my biggest hands, I hope to get in raising wars earlier than the river.) And I also know that I don't use raise-fold lines on the big streets a whole lot.

Edit: Another reason to at least consider calling, when your river raise gets 3-bet:

There are a few players (though not a lot) who like to bluff-raise the river. If your opponent has run into a few players of this type, he may have 3-bet sudden river raises in the past and then he may have gotten called by a worse hand or he may have watched his opponent fold. Either way, he was probably happy with the results, which could encourage him to raise your sudden river raise as well.

Anyway, though, I do think that it's often the case that your chances of getting 3-bet on the river are smaller than they are on the previous streets.