If a pair flops and I have overcards....???

[12AX7]

If a pair flops on the board... and I have overcards, should I consider that an "overcard hand"?

What's the correct way to think about and play that situation?

Suppose I have only one overcard, say the A or K, same question as above.

I haven't found anything in print about it yet, but it does seem to happen quite a bit. So I thought I should get some idea how to work with it.

[12AX7]

So this is such a lame question, no serious answers? Or perhaps it belongs in the Beginner forum?

Have to forgive me. I'm not much of an HE player at this point.

[Nick C]

There are a lot of variables, such as what the pair is, what the action is, and how many people saw the flop.

JJ on the board concerns me more than 22, for instance. And if seven people saw the flop, I'm at least a little concerned when I see any pair on the board.

[Skadet]

But you're a guitar player? (12AX7 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Betting out with overcards is a pretty classic move. It depends a lot on position. I would bet out, but depending on the field I would not call. Likewise, I would fold to a raise.

Here's why: say you bet out and it's raised to you. You can call, which is a mediocre play, or you can re-raise. Re-raising is a bad play, because even if your opponant has trips, he will be scared to make a move on you, thus you lose your chance to read him.

Finally, if the betting around you makes you think anyone's got anything legitimate, you're still drawing against a made hand (at least 2-pr vs your 1-pr with overs) and possibly not even drawing to a winner.

Decide if the opponants and pot size warrant a bet and play it from there.

[JoshuaD]

Generally the board pairing on the flop is good for your overcards. On a XYZ board, there are 9 cards your opponents could have to have a pair, on a XXY board, there are only 5.

[soweak.]

I think it's opponent dependenton whether to bet out overcards on a paired board. A more specific example would be required. Number of opponents, texture of flop, action pre-flop, opponent reads (passive, loose, aggressive, etc), relative position, and your table image need to be taken into account.

There is no one way to play overcards on a paired board.

[12AX7]

Hi JoshuaD, Everyone else,
I was reading Lee Jones and he advocates folding overcards if you miss. Didn't see anything about pair on board. Haven't located a passage in SSHE yet.

However I did some sims. Seems AKo/AKs win more than thier fair share against 4 or less opponents when the opponents are programmed to play any Group 1 through 8 hands to the river.

Not sure how that holds up vrs. real games, but it seems to say that one should play out AK - XXY unless you have a good read that you are up against the trips or boat, when you have 4 or less opponents.

Is that what everyone else basically thinks too?

I have to take sims with a grain of salt because the one I'm using doesn't model players. And the one's that do may not model the folks out in the real world.

However, as you get further away from AK it seems to reverse.

For example with 89s and 77x the overcards are big losers.

So it seems this is very very sensitive to just how "over" the overcards are.

[12AX7]

Yes, I'm a guitar player. Guess this would be a more appropriate handle over at Guitars101.com LOL!

[12AX7]

Another bit of data here.

Sims show that say, AKo/AKs with a pair on board win more than fair share with 4 or less opponents.

However WLLHE 2nd contends that Two Pair with a pair on board is very vulnerable even though you have an Overpair [WLLHE P.83]

I did some sims with KK and board of 77 and it seems KK wins more than it's fair share against opponents limited to S&M Group 1-8 hands.

So the sims seem to say AK - 77x and KK - 77xx win more than thier fair share. Implying I want to get money into the pot. But Lee is saying at least the KK is a check and call scenario. Therefore I have to believe the AK situation is even worse, in Lee's opinion.

Further, Lee goes on to say that (in loose games) you should just generally toss missed overcards. [WLLHE P.109] I saw no special mention like, "... except when a pair is on board, then play it out."

So the book answers seem to be...

1) Pocket Pair with pair on board. Proceed very carefully.
2) Overcards with pair on board. I infer this to be an overcard hand that "missed" flop and thus fold (to aggression) is the reccomendation?

Anyone have any thoughts?

I get the feeling I have some fuzzy thinking going on.