AK BB with two very good players, TPTK check calls the whole way ...

TiltsMcFabulous · #1 06-29-2005, 11:36 PM

I am not sure what to think on this hand. I'll post what I was thinking at each juncture.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP3 raises, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

 I just called here because the raiser was *extremely* tight, and the SB was similarly tight. There is an excellent chance one of them has AA or KK in this spot. 

Flop: (6 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

 My intention here was to CR, but the SB's call slows me down. At this point I start thinking of what I beat that these two guys would be raising with, and can only come up with KK, KQ, and AJ (maybe 99, but that's iffy and they would not have bet or called with it on the flop). 

Turn: (4.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP3 raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

 A safe card, but then the SB donk bets at me. I was vacillating between a raise and a call here, and with the PF raiser to act behind me I opted to wuss out. Once again, I just don't beat very much on this board. AA, QQ, 1010, AQ, and A10 all beat me (and JJ has a gutshot, and KK has a gutshot and one out to an AK killing set). Sigh. 

River: (9.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks.

 Was planning to call his bet, maybe raise, and now he checks. 

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

I am usually SO much more aggressive than this, but this hand felt wrong from beginning to end. What does each player have? Baffling.

mr pink · #2 06-29-2005, 11:38 PM

gotta find the raise button in there somewhere bro. you have tptk, why you scared?

JJH3984 · #3 06-30-2005, 12:07 AM

I think you gotta checkraise the flop and failing that, raise the donkbet on the turn if you get threebet by the super tighty you can fold the river unimproved (unless he is tricky or just very aggressive postflop), but you have TPTK with the nut inside straight draw. You gotta raise IMO. Someone tell me if im wrong.

TiltsMcFabulous · #4 06-30-2005, 12:36 AM

What does raising gain for me on any street?

Yobz · #5 06-30-2005, 01:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What does raising gain for me on any street?

[/ QUOTE ]

money

TiltsMcFabulous · #6 06-30-2005, 01:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does raising gain for me on any street?

[/ QUOTE ]

money

[/ QUOTE ]

Glib, but quite possibly untrue. Is raising a +EV play against the players I am in against?

Jgents · #7 06-30-2005, 01:45 AM

You lost so many opportunities to value bet and so many chances to protect your hand that I strongly feel you should go over both concepts throughly before playing again.

Hybrid_11 · #8 06-30-2005, 02:12 AM

Im not sure why you did not consider 3-betting preflop to begin with. Take control of the hand even before the flop comes. For one AK is an easy 3 bet in most cases and secondly this route will give you more information i believe. Leading the flop now lets you see villains moves wheter he calls, raises possibly removing sb from the hand or maybe even folds. I think you could of gained control of this whole hand by simply 3 betting preflop and that would probably allow the hand to be played out in a much easier fashion

TiltsMcFabulous · #9 06-30-2005, 02:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You lost so many opportunities to value bet and so many chances to protect your hand that I strongly feel you should go over both concepts throughly before playing again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I understand them just fine. I was not concerned about protecting my hand. Anything I was ahead of was drawing extremely thin, and I *was* waiting for a good time to raise--it just never came. A raise when I am behind here is a terrible misplay, and one I see very commonly made at low limits.

Exatly where should I have raised? Possibly preflop, but as I said I was in against two total rocks (both with less than 14% vpip over 200+ hands). So I don't think a reraise with only AK would have been wise there (though I am open to convincing otherwise). On the flop, I would have raised had the SB not smooth called (the classic flopped monster play from a player like him). Then on the turn he donk bets and folds to a raise, which is totally baffling. I never once saw that particular player bet without the nuts or close to them. Then on the river, if I am ahead, why not let the PF raiser bet for me (though in fact he did not)? I win the same as a called value bet and don't open myself up to a raise.

As good as I think the advice on here normally is (and I do), simply telling me that I don't understand poker is not helpful.

Argus · #10 06-30-2005, 07:22 AM

Please 3-bet preflop. There are only two hands that dominate you, and many raising hands you dominate or have coinflip equity against. Add a third player padding the pot (who had a discount to call a hijack raise) and I can't see why you aren't 3-betting. I know you say they are tight, but if they are good players as well as tight their standards are certainly looser in this position. Even against tight players I think AK is worthy of a reraise.

I like your flop play and change of plans once SB calls. Your goal on a flop like this should be to try to force gutshots with a pair to face an unprofitable call and you can't do this on the flop. So call and try something on the turn. There are still many more hands you're ahead of than behind, despite three cards in the red zone.

I would raise SB's donkbet. If the pfr isn't ahead of you he likely has a draw to pull ahead (or at least chop) and you can face him with about 3.5:1. And if SB is ahead of you, you have 4 outs to the nuts, so you can definitely call a 3-bet (though you would prefer not to face one I'd imagine). You mention that you are baffled by SB's play since you'd never seen him bet without a very strong hand. Perhaps he was banking on this hoping you'd fold. Unless you have a lot of observation telling you he wouldn't bet a hand worse or even only slightly better than AK, raising is much better because of the hope of getting the pot headsup and increasing your chance of winning it.

By checking the river you give villain a chance to showdown his weak hands (KQ, QJ, JJ, etc) for free and value bet his stronger holdings (AQ, KJ, etc) against you. Much better to make him pay with his worse hands on a board that he is unlikely to raise on unless he really has your goose cooked. (And I'm a player that loves to check on the river.)