Bellagio 6/12 hand

[PennDisc]

I'm not experienced at all in Omaha 8, but sat down with a buddy at the Bellagio 4/8 game. The previous hand was scooped so the half kill is on in this hand making it 6/12.

I am dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the CO seat. 3 limpers including the kill who checked. This is a pretty trashy hand but I limp anyway (big mistake?). Button limps, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop (7 players) : 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 checks, UTG (kill player) bets, 2 calls.
Now I've got a gutshot straight draw, Q high flush draw, and a weak low draw. Only an offsuit J gives me the nuts but I still think I have enough to continue here. I call.

Turn (4 players): (5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
All of a sudden my low is starting to look good. I still have the diamond draw and the gutshot for high, and a 3 gives me the wheel straight also. There's a bet and call in front of me and I call also. With the nut low I might have raised but I can't be sure that I have anything locked up yet so I just called.

River (3 players): (5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Great river card. Both players check to me, which signals to me that a higher flush isn't out there, and likely nobody's got the nut low either. With the 3rd nut flush and 2nd nut low I make a very easy bet and get 1 caller, who mucks after I show.

I think that the hand played itself after the turn card but wouldn't mind comments on any street. Should it be an easy preflop fold? Should I give up the hand on the flop without any nut draws?

[JoshuaMayes]

I would definitely muck preflop as there aren't very many ways for your hand to make the nuts in either direction.

I would fold the flop, as well. Even if you catch your 3-outer, you will have to dodge a low card/board pair/higher straight/ higher flush to scoop. Your low draw is terrible (5th nut) and your 3d nut flush is likely to lose you money more often than it will win you money if it hits. I really don't like this flop call.

Like you said, the turn and river play themselves.

[beernutz]

I agree with Joshua. How many other cards other than an ace, the K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s or a Jack are you going to be even lukewarm to see on the turn? The non-heart Jacks are the only cards that make you slightly happy, giving you the temporary nuts, but you still have to sweat a BUCKET LOAD of river cards that would spoil your day.

</just my $.02>

[beset7]

I would venture so far as to say that in a loose low-limit game this hand is unplayable from any position. Anyone disagree? This hands sort of demonstrates why. Thinks went as well as you could have hoped (catching an ace on the turn) and it to and I wouldn't be surprised if you were scooped or got half the pot or less.

Revisiting my O8 game so I could be off.

[ QUOTE ]
I would venture so far as to say that in a loose low-limit game this hand is unplayable from any position. Anyone disagree? This hands sort of demonstrates why. Thinks went as well as you could have hoped (catching an ace on the turn) and it to and I wouldn't be surprised if you were scooped or got half the pot or less.

Revisiting my O8 game so I could be off.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a loose low-limit game, this hand is unplayable from any position (but big blind).
In a tight low-limit game, this hand is unplayable from any position (but big blind).
In any low-limit game in which the players are dealt 4 cards, this hand is unplayable from any position (but big blind).

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
his is a pretty trashy hand but I limp anyway (big mistake?). Button limps, SB completes, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Penn Disc - Preflop: Your call seems a bit loose, but I would not characterize it necessarily as a big mistake in a passive game such as this one seems to be. (However, I'd generally fold this hand with three players yet to follow me, even in a passive game).

[ QUOTE ]
Now I've got a gutshot straight draw, Q high flush draw, and a weak low draw. Only an offsuit J gives me the nuts but I still think I have enough to continue here. I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

2nd betting round: I don't think you have enough to call. You have what you claim to have, but that's not enough to call. Continuing here, in my humble opinion, is a big mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
All of a sudden my low is starting to look good.

[/ QUOTE ]

3rd betting round: When you play hands beyond where you should fold them, you tend to get in trouble. It's hard to advise you here.

4th betting round: Well played here.

As it turns out you played the hand and won the pot. Congratulations.

You'll win a lot of pots when you continue playing after you should have folded. Indeed, if you just call every time all the way to the river, you figure to win more pots than anyone else at the table. But at the end of the playing session, the winner isn't necessarily the player who won the most pots.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[HajiShirazu]

I think this hand is one you shouldn't play unless you're trying to steal the blinds, which I understand doesn't happen in live O8 games. You pretty much can't make a nut hand with it in either direction, which means your hand sucks in a multiway pot. For example here you hit the flop pretty hard, with flush, low, and gutshot straight draws, yet you could barely even call, then you caught one of the best cards in the deck for you on the turn, and you still couldn't bet for value until you caught a perfect river card as well. This hand even though you won is an example of why you don't play hands like this, preflop equity wise the hand might not even be that bad, but postflop this is a big loser as you just can't make many bettable hands with it.
But this is a good hand to play heads up against someone in the blind with a random hand, you have some high cards, an okay low and double suits. So you shouldn't always be folding this.

[GooperMC]

Pre-flop: Fold. This hand can only get you in trouble.

Flop: Fold. (See the pre-flop call just got you in trouble).

Turn / River: I like the way you played it.

[PennDisc]

Thanks for the advice. In looking back at the hand I knew the preflop and flop plays were questionable - but it's good to know that the decisions are pretty cut and dry for experienced O8 players. In the hand itself, I think I was a little blinded by the fact that a gutshot with a flush draw on the flop is so strong in a big multiway pot in holdem.

Omaha is definitely fun but for making money I'll probably stick to holdem. Especially live, where you'll see less than 20 hands/hr playing Omaha. But it was interesting that half of the table was playing even worse than I was.

[PokerProdigy]

I am new to omaha/8 so take my advice with a grain of salt and definitely listen to the other replies with more confidence than this one.

It seems to me that you still made mistakes in this hand (aka -EV) because I think in many similar situations you'll lose more than you'll win here. It seems like a situation where you made a mistake preflop and then that mistake keeps compounding.

The call on the flop is pretty marginal and it seems like there are many scary turn cards that ALSO improve your hand. Such as, a low diamond, because then there may be lots of betting and raising and you'll be unsure whether you're up against the nut low or the nut flush.

The turn is a great card for you because it give you the second nut low and some draws at probably winning the high side. If I was you I might raise the turn to (hopefully) force out the player behind you if he happens to have a better flush draw (or maybe even a better straight draw), but I can also see why you might want to just call, in case you're already up against the nut low.

River was correctly played given that another diamond fell.