I can't figure out certain players

[soah]

There is a certain breed of fish that has really been driving me crazy. I can't get inside their head and figure out what they are doing, which makes it difficult for me to exploit their leaks. They clearly have no idea how to play no limit poker, but yet I hardly feel like I have any advantage over them.

Their play can basically be summed up as follows:

* In small pots, their play is completely horrible. They limp in with trashy dominated hands and try to make top pair. They raise preflop with their good hands, but they don't raise enough to protect their hands. For example, they frequently minraise, or they will raise to 3BB with several limpers, or they will reraise the minimum with AA. On the flop, you'll see more minbetting. Sometimes it's some dumbass with bottom pair betting into five people, or a draw, and other times it's someone getting cute with top two pair on a highly coordinated board. Sometimes someone will minbet into a huge pot, and some guy with the nuts will... you guessed it... he'll minraise.

* In big pots, their play is almost perfect. They may make shitty bets and raises that completely fail to protect their hand, but they don't pay out like an ATM if you crack their hand.

My first theory about this is that when you take a bunch of fish and throw them in a game together, the players that can't fold a pair in a huge pot will quickly go broke to the semi-skilled players. These players will bust out so quickly that they will have no desire to return. So you are still left with fishy players, but not the fishy players with the most exploitable leaks.

My second theory is that these people are playing on scared money, and they are simply afraid to risk all their money without the nuts. This would explain why you rarely see these players make big bluffs... and since none of them are making big bluffs, it also makes it correct for them to lay down marginal hands in huge pots, because their opponent is too scared to try bluffing them out.

So now I just need to figure out the best way to beat these players... it is frustrating for me so far because I'm not getting paid off. I'll call small raises with pairs and drawing hands, but I don't make much money when I hit. But at the same time, I have a hard time bluffing them out, because it costs so much to try it. They may call on the flop, call on the turn, and then finally fold on the river... I'm just never sure at what point the player is going to give up and lay down their hand.

Which reminds me... another reason it's so hard to get paid off is because they freaking underbet the pot so much. I can't make any money slowplaying, because they won't bet anything for me. If I raise a lot, then they fold before they've had to put in too much money.

Sometimes I try to take advantage of them by just calling their tiny bets when I have a draw... and then they check and fold if I hit it. If I miss, they keep making craptacular bets, and on the river I'm stuck trying to decide if they have top pair and will pick off my river bluff, or if they've just been betting bottom pair the whole way and will let me steal it.

Hopefully I sound sufficiently frustrated.

[SCfuji]

sounds like to me you have a pretty good read on them...

[kasey2004]

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sounds like to me you have a pretty good read on them...

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lol

[Dov]

I think it's pretty simple really.

Just value bet all your good hands and throw in the occasional marginal hand as well.

Since they play so weakly, if you get played with, you'll know you're done with it.

Eventually, they'll be forced to either change their style or go broke.

Let them call off their whole stack to you with A6.

[soah]

That's the problem. They AREN'T calling off their entire stack with A6.

[imported_anacardo]

I feel your pain, dude...

What's with the rash of minibets? It's like people don't want to learn to use the slider, or have to type, or something. They're careful, in their way; they don't really bluff, but when they do it's with the same min-raise they put in on their aces full, and they're always afraid that you're bluffing.

I'm on the cutoff with AKo. Three limpers ahead of me, I make it 7x the big blind, the button and one limper both call. Flop comes three rags, two of the suit of my ace. Limper leads out for a buck. The hell do you even do with that? Call? Pot-sized raise? This could be a pair of deuces, a paired rag with an ace kicker or someone trying to draw for the least possible expense. I'm seeing it all over the place. Who taught America's guppies that it was a good idea to either min-bet, over-bet or push? Maddening.

[SCfuji]

i was being serious [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

soah. i find a lot of these guys at my 25NL games that im starting to play. i have found that either

1) you can play their stupid little piss bet game and play .5/1 or...

2) you can make solid raises when you have a hand or dont have a hand. they will start to think you are full of it eventually and give it all away.

[Dov]

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* In small pots, their play is completely horrible. They limp in with trashy dominated hands and try to make top pair.

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If they don't call off their stacks with top pair, then why do they limp in trying to hit it?

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They raise preflop with their good hands, but they don't raise enough to protect their hands.

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Just play the odds. If they are giving you correct odds, take them. You are such a better NL player than me, and this seems obvious to me.

Maybe I'm missing something here.

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In big pots, their play is almost perfect. They may make shitty bets and raises that completely fail to protect their hand, but they don't pay out like an ATM if you crack their hand.

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Will they fold to a bluff in a big pot? Maybe this is a leak you can exploit.

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So now I just need to figure out the best way to beat these players... it is frustrating for me so far because I'm not getting paid off. I'll call small raises with pairs and drawing hands, but I don't make much money when I hit. But at the same time, I have a hard time bluffing them out, because it costs so much to try it. They may call on the flop, call on the turn, and then finally fold on the river... I'm just never sure at what point the player is going to give up and lay down their hand.

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I'll tell you what I think will work best. This may go against your normal style of play, but I think LAG is best. (Not true LAG, just seems like LAG)

This may be expensive initially, but I think you can recoup it all and a lot more with your superior post flop skills.

I would raise every hand I want to play PF to between 4-6 BB regardless of position. Re-evaluate if you get raised, and play the hand strongly.

Bet 1/2 to 3/4 of the pot on every flop initially. After about 5 times of this, tighten up the flop play a bit and switch to check raising the turn.

You will get the money in PF and take down bigger pots.

They will fold too often so you will take down more pots (that are larger too).
If they don't fold, they will now call off their stacks to you with A6 because the pot is larger.

What do you think?

[soah]

If they don't call off their stacks with top pair, then why do they limp in trying to hit it?

Because they want to minbet the flop and the turn to try to win a couple bucks. Because they don't know what they are doing.

Just play the odds. If they are giving you correct odds, take them. You are such a better NL player than me, and this seems obvious to me.

Well usually NL is about implied odds, but in these cases I'm usually not getting very much.

Will they fold to a bluff in a big pot? Maybe this is a leak you can exploit.

Yeah... that's what I'm trying to figure out. But it's not always easy to figure out the difference between someone playing a big hand passively, and someone playing trash passively. Or in other words, my opponents could easily have the hand I am representing... argh.

I'll tell you what I think will work best. This may go against your normal style of play, but I think LAG is best. (Not true LAG, just seems like LAG)

I've been considering something like this. But I'm hoping to get feedback from people that have already learned how to beat these types of opponents to make sure that I end up trying something that will work.

One thing I've discovered is that raising huge from the blinds and then firing on the flop has always taken the pot down... so I'm starting to widen the range of hands that I do it with.

[TheWorstPlayer]

It is simply not possible that they a)not pay you off and b)call you down when you bluff - unless they are simply very good (which doesn't seem like it's the case). So it seems to me like you need to tighten up your read on them a little bit. Which guys are the ones who bet min with top pair, which guys are the ones who bet min with bottom pair? Usually it is not someone mixing it up, usually it is different people. Etc. They might all show similar characteristics, but some people are aware of when a pot is multi-way and change their play, others aren't. I think your general view is correct, but it will help you to make the right play to try to have a more specific 'sub-read' on each particular player. Then you'll know which guys will pay you off once you hit and which guys will fold to your semi-bluff.