Why do players do this...?

mtdoak · #1 06-18-2005, 02:36 AM

Ok, I'm on the button with AJo. 2 limpers to me, I raise, Aggro SB 3-bets, and flop comes T9x with two of a suit i don't have, BB calls. SB checks and BB bets....I muck...why? Because I know, like any good SSH player, that the SB is check raising and I'm not getting the odds to draw to a just overcards for two bets. And this happens all the time!! Players will show tremendous strength...and when they hit their hand (i.e. a set) they almost always check the flop hoping to C/R. Could anyone explain this phenomonon to me outside of 'well, they are donks', is there some mystical logic that elludes me.

27offsooot · #2 06-18-2005, 02:40 AM

Why do u care when they play poorly?

einbert · #3 06-18-2005, 02:41 AM

Well, they *are* donks.

You tell me why people do that and I'll tell you why people do this:

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (2 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (1 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (1 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 3 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Kd Kc (one pair, kings).
Hero has 7d 2h (straight, nine high).
Outcome: Hero wins 3 BB.

QTip · #4 06-18-2005, 02:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm on the button with AJo. 2 limpers to me, I raise, Aggro SB 3-bets, and flop comes T9x with two of a suit i don't have, BB calls. SB checks and BB bets....I muck...why? Because I know, like any good SSH player, that the SB is check raising and I'm not getting the odds to draw to a just overcards for two bets. And this happens all the time!! Players will show tremendous strength...and when they hit their hand (i.e. a set) they almost always check the flop hoping to C/R. Could anyone explain this phenomonon to me outside of 'well, they are donks', is there some mystical logic that elludes me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love the post MT. I think it's important to really look at these things and see why it makes so much sense to the "donks" making these plays. In POP, Schoonmaker talks about this sort of thing...why the guy running around shooting people is doing that...it makes sense to him. The martians are coming to attack and he's going to get them before they get a chance to get them.

Well..my thoughts here for whatever they're worth. I think sometimes people are much more concerned at how others view their play than they are about their winrate. Many people consider slowplaying a hallmark of expert play, and that's how they want to be seen. Their hand is going to showdown (probably as the winner) and they want people to be impressed by how tricky they can be.

That's where I think it's at.

Or....

Perhaps they just think that everyone will fold. Quite some time ago I was in a sit n go at Pacific Poker. It was a pretty big pot Pf and the flop came 999. The hand checked through all the way to showdown and the sb showed the 9 for flops quads. I said "wow..nice hand. Why didn't you bet at least the river?" (Again, Schoonmaker talks about gently asking questions to get info...thin line there between getting info and tapping the tank). He said...we'll if I bet anywhere, everyone will just fold anyway. Just not really getting it at that point.

So..maybe 2 possibilities there.

QTip · #5 06-18-2005, 02:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do u care when they play poorly?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's extremely important to understand these things. It's understanding your enemy, his motives, and how this affects his play. When you get that, he's pwned.

Jeff W · #6 06-18-2005, 02:48 AM

Weak. Bet the flop.

einbert · #7 06-18-2005, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Weak. Bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying you'd bet this flop against any player, regardless of their VPIP/WTSD/anything else?

QTip · #8 06-18-2005, 02:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Weak. Bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

First...my understand was that the BB already bet...so are you saying "raise the flop"?

Anyway, let's say it was checked to him, what value is there in betting that flop?

istewart · #9 06-18-2005, 02:54 AM

einbert's hand.

Jeff W · #10 06-18-2005, 02:54 AM

Yeah. I autobet the flop in this situation against all but the most tenacious players. The cards on the flop and in my hand don't matter that much.