Pushing Draws

[primate]

My normal game is $100nl full ring game. I'm currently trying to identify if this is a bad leak to my game.

Say for example your late position and call a standard raise (who we put on a high pocket pair) with 45 suited (but could be any suited connector). Maybe a couple of other callers maybe not.

Flop comes favourable giving you a draw either to the open ended straight or flush perhaps both.

Preflop raiser bets out 2/3rds to size of the pot and its folded round to me.

My question is when do you push if at all? I understand that if you push you will make the best hand between 25% and 55% of the time depending on your holding and the opponents. Clearly if the opponent calls you evey time you stand to lose in the long run.

It appears that whenever I push, I get called more often than not and dont draw out losing my stack.

How many times does your opponent have to laydown the best hand to make this a positive earning play?


Doyles Supersystem says PUSH! but lately I find myself losing a heck of lot and losing a lot of faith.

[xorbie]

Doyle does not say push. It's people who read that and go crazy that make it so profitable for people with overpairs to call allins. Push with OESFD. Push with set. Push with nut flush draw (maybe). Push with two pair.

If you just have a straight or flush draw, there are many ways to play it. Pushing is not nearly the best. The board also really matters here.

[primate]

Doyle states that if he bets an open ended straight draw and someone plays back at him, all his chips end up in the middle of the table = PUSH.

And of course it depends on the board. Surely there must be a factor in the number of times the opponent folds that would help make the push +ve?

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
Doyle does not say push. It's people who read that and go crazy that make it so profitable for people with overpairs to call allins. Push with OESFD. Push with set. Push with nut flush draw (maybe). Push with two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is right.

[ QUOTE ]
Doyle states that if he bets an open ended straight draw and someone plays back at him, all his chips end up in the middle of the table = PUSH.


[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't. There's a huge difference between being effectively aggressive and being stupid aggressive. Pushing all your money in with the worst of it when you expect to be called is not effective.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop raiser bets out 2/3rds to size of the pot and its folded round to me.

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you're playing against a 2+2er and should fold. Otherwise we get pissed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[PoBoy321]

Of course, depending on your holding, the board and your opponent, you can either call, raise or fold.

[primate]

Please explain what OESFD stands for?

[meleader2]

open ended straight and flush draw

[primate]

[ QUOTE ]
Doyle does not say push. It's people who read that and go crazy that make it so profitable for people with overpairs to call allins. Push with OESFD. Push with set. Push with nut flush draw (maybe). Push with two pair.

If you just have a straight or flush draw, there are many ways to play it. Pushing is not nearly the best. The board also really matters here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok take the OESFD and the nut flush draw. Lets say it looks favourable and u push. Say for example every time your opponent calls you with at least an overpair. Arent the odds still against you or do you factor in the number of times he/she folds (how often will this be? maybe tpweakk)?

Thanks for the sdvice geez if I'm playing it wrong I should be put right! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[mason55]

Unless I"m drunk (which I am) you can't have a OESFD + Nut flush draw plus have your opponent have an overpair. Any oesfd, by definition, can't be the nut flush draw.