KK - preflop laydown

punter11235 · #1 06-13-2005, 04:48 AM

Hello all,

I rarely lay down KK in 200NL (or below) game... but here it comes : (Villain is solid, didnt make anything stupid for about 100hands I played with him) :

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($200.75)
UTG+1 ($282.50)
MP1 ($443.25)
MP2 ($137.50)
MP3 ($107.75)
CO ($200.00)
Button ($482.00)
SB ($182.00)
BB ($200.00)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2. SB posts a blind of $1.
Hero raises to $10, UTG+1 calls $10, 3 folds, CO (poster) calls $8, Button raises to $20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $60, UTG+1 folds, CO folds, Button raises to $482, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $565

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Button wins $565. 

I considered call with KK to hit my set or trying to figure out if he has AA , thoughts ?

tripdad · #2 06-13-2005, 04:54 AM

IMO, if villain was really a solid player, he would not come back over the top of you the 2nd time around if he had AA. why would he want KK to fold here? he already had you heads up.

cheers!

gulebjorn · #3 06-13-2005, 05:02 AM

I'll quote Harrington on this one for ya:

"A lot of players will tell you stories about the times they folded kings because they knew their opponent was raising with aces. Here's my story. About a year ago, a tight player in the big blind raised me. I actually thought he had aces. I was in early position with a pair of kings. I made a modest raise and he reraised me. I thought a long time and called. The flop came three small cards, and he bet a modest amount and I called. He actually had the aces.

I almost threw the hand away, but I couldn't do it. Just not savvy enough. Even bets and raises that seem to indicate great strength can have a variety of explanations, from moderately strong hands to outright bluffs. And here's a little secret from the world of top-class poker. Nobody else is that savvy either, no matter what they tell you."

I finally typed this, now I'm gonna copy-paste it every time anyone brings up folding Kings PF.

tripdad · #4 06-13-2005, 05:12 AM

love the quote, bear. i've never folded KK preflop in a cash game, and may never ever do so.

once while playing live, a friend of mine folded KK preflop to action similar to the action in the OP's hand. the villain(another friend) in the hand showed QQ.

cheers!

punter11235 · #5 06-13-2005, 05:23 AM

I have to agree that folding KK against all in bets in 200NL games is -EV in general. What convinced me here was number of callers and speed of reraise.. sb should be very brave to do it with AK or QQ.. but these 200NL guys proved their bravery many many times.
I am still not sure about this fold the more I think about the more I want to call [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Best wishes

soah · #6 06-13-2005, 05:25 AM

His actions in this hand are rather inconsistent. The first time around he min-raises in what is already a multi-way pot, and the second time he makes a large all-in raise. There are sometimes posts in these forums where it looks very clear that the guy has AA, but this isn't one of them. It looks like he is juicing the pot a bit the first time around so that he can more easily commit the rest of his stack if he flops good (and he is pretty sure that he will flop the best hand a large percentage of the time). But when it comes back to him for $60, he decides he doesn't want to play guessing games heads-up in a huge pot if he gets a bad flop, so he just shoves the rest of it in.

If he had AA... why would he minraise the first time? Is he trying to sucker you in? If so... then why push the second time? Shouldn't he just call, and let you bet the flop?

If he really has AA... then his minraise there is just a horrible play. Sure, it would work out in this instance since it pretty much forces you to reraise with your KK. But most of the time, everyone will just call, and he has given everyone the proper odds to outflop him. Anyone who is capable of botching AA in this manner is certainly the same type of player that would completely botch AK/QQ/JJ preflop as well.

You're getting about 2:1 to call this and you will suck out on AA 20% of the time... I think that if you call here you very well could get shown AK/QQ/JJ often enough to make up the money you're losing each time you run into AA.

gulebjorn · #7 06-13-2005, 05:57 AM

For those of you who like the quote, it continues:

"About one time in 24, when you hold kings at a full table, someone at the table will be holding aces. If you try to figure out exactly when that occurs, you'll end up folding a lot of hands when you're actually facing queens, or ace-king, or something even weaker. So don't bother. Just play your kings like you have the best hand, and you'll do better in the long run."

Cheers!

djoyce003 · #8 06-13-2005, 09:50 AM

here is why you don't lay them down.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Hero ($87.3)
MP ($24)
Button ($156.35)
SB ($84.25)
BB ($249.96)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
Hero raises to $4, 2 folds, SB (poster) raises to $7.5, 1 fold, Hero raises to $20, SB calls $76.25 (All-In), Hero calls $64.25.

Flop: ($169.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($169.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($169.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $169.50

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kh Kc (one pair, kings).
SB has Qd Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $169.50.

dtbog · #9 06-13-2005, 11:19 AM

The converter doesn't seem to like this hand at all.

2/4 blinds.

Hero makes it 12 UTG.
MP makes it $45.
BB calls.
Hero pushes (covering opponents)
MP calls ($181 total)
BB calls ($150 total)

...
BB has 8c 8s (two pair, eights and sixes).
Hero has Ah Ad (two pair, aces and sixes).
MP1 has Jh Th (two pair, tens and sixes).

aces g00t.

punter11235 · #10 06-13-2005, 01:47 PM

Thank you for that analysis Soah. I missed the point with miraising and trickiness completely. Now I think its clear call.
Generally I believe calling is good unless you have very good read... mine wasnt too good this time...

Best wishes