River Donkbet Boy

QTip · #1 06-09-2005, 11:33 PM

The river bettor is the same player in these hands. This guy was betting every other river OOP with or w/o a hand. Hand 1 here is an example. Do you think I took fact too far in hand 2? Would you call the 3 bet?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (9.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has As Kd (high card, ace).
UTG has Th Ts (one pair, tens).
Hero has Qd Ad (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.25 BB. 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (8.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP1 reraises

Jake (The Snake) · #2 06-09-2005, 11:36 PM

I'd be more inclined to raise hand 1 than hand 2. The river doesn't really complete any draws and you have a guy calling in the middle who you almost certainly have beat.

crunchy1 · #3 06-09-2005, 11:41 PM

How many hands do you have on this guy? Do you realize that these aren't just river donkbets but, the c/c, c/c, bet line? Wouldn't we sometimes play TT like that in Hand #1 - to make sure a bet goes in on every street? Have you considered that maybe he's got some read on you?

Sorry for all the questions... I think we need more information here.

CashFlo · #4 06-09-2005, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
River: (8.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP1 reraises

[/ QUOTE ]

im guessing you mean that UTG 3-bets

QTip · #5 06-09-2005, 11:51 PM

The questions asked thus far...

Yes, in hand 2 that should be UTG 3 bets...my bad.

Hand 1 was much better for a river raise yes; however, this was one of the first times I noticed it. Several times later I found myself in hand 2.

I've no stats on him (I've not used stats for the last 15K..bad I know). This is the only thing I've noticed so far..about 6 donkbets on the river when he had busted draws. In hand 1 he had A high...not TT, that was UTG.

Really, I think I overplayed it since it was the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falling. Any other rag on the river, I think the river raise has merit. Just wanted to get some thoughts though.

CashFlo · #6 06-09-2005, 11:57 PM

yeaaa i dont like the raise in hand 2 for several reasons:

1. it was an overcard
2. it complete the flush
3. i find that when theres a paired board on the flop and a fish calls u down on every street, and shows aggression in the later streets they often have the trips.

TheRedDragon · #7 06-09-2005, 11:57 PM

I don't think you're getting value on this raise, even against this guy. 2 jacks are on board, an overcard hit the river and a flush just came in. I'm not seeing any evidence that this guy's preflop play is out of line, so this board is pretty scary.

You're just not beating enough hands here for the raise to be profitable, and you don't have any evidence that the guy calls after you raise his donkbet (do you?). When you get 3-bet, it's pretty close, but I'd lean towards calling. If he's bluffing the river as in the first hand, maybe just maybe he's stepping way out of line and 3-betting 1 time in 14 times. I'm not at all sure on that point though, and it highlights the crappiness of that river raise.

crunchy1 · #8 06-10-2005, 12:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In hand 1 he had A high...not TT, that was UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]
My mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
Really, I think I overplayed it since it was the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falling. Any other rag on the river, I think the river raise has merit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed.

Had you given any thought to his line as a whole rather than just viewing his play as river donkbets? I mean - where do players learn the c/c, c/c, bet line from?? Could he be a 2+2 lurker? Could he know that you're a 2+2er and be trying to donk on you?

Or do you just think he's an idiot?

brettbrettr · #9 06-10-2005, 12:01 AM

I hate the raise in hand 2. If you successfully value bet the river here, you'd be very happy. Value call, be happy.

Nick C · #10 06-10-2005, 12:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The questions asked thus far...

Yes, in hand 2 that should be UTG 3 bets...my bad.

Hand 1 was much better for a river raise yes; however, this was one of the first times I noticed it. Several times later I found myself in hand 2.

I've no stats on him (I've not used stats for the last 15K..bad I know). This is the only thing I've noticed so far..about 6 donkbets on the river when he had busted draws. In hand 1 he had A high...not TT, that was UTG.

Really, I think I overplayed it since it was the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falling. Any other rag on the river, I think the river raise has merit. Just wanted to get some thoughts though.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 2, if he's betting the river with a busted flush draw, will he actually call with it?

I'd be more inclined to raise if I thought he had a worse hand that he wanted to show down.

I will say though (and this probably applies more to 3/6 than 2/4), that I am starting to think I should raise (both with marginal hands and as a bluff) more often than I do when faced with the check-call, check-call, bet line. I think sometimes my opponent is betting the river for the reasons we do when we use that line: He has a hand with showdown value, but he's worried I'll give up and check behind with ace-high. That doesn't mean he loves his hand, though, and I see enough bet-folding going on at 3/6 (sometimes against me when I have a very good hand and do raise) that I'm thinking that maybe I should start raising these sudden river bets more often.