Conversation I had with Chef.

[BeerMoney]

I'd like to preface this by saying that when I first moved up to 5/10, and 10/20, I NEVER stole antes. I had moved up from 3/6 and maybe some .5/1, where ante stealing was totally unecessary. After moving up, I got my ass kicked, reread 7CSFAP, and actually read the ante stealing section. This section has some fairly simple guidelines to follow, and I went ahead and used them in my arsenal. (More at 10/20 then at 5/10). After doing this, I discussed this with "The Donator".. Who was SHOCKED that I hadn't been practicing any thievery. He made a statement to the effect of: "Gotta steal to stay alive."

I have been mixing some 5/10 in with my 10/20 play now, after playing mostly 10/20 for a coupla months. I've noticed a drastic difference in the games, and I made a comment to vintage_sara that at 5/10 it seems more like a game of showing down the best hand,(there's a better way of putting this that I have seen in Gary Carson's holdem book), and at 10/20, it is more of a "battle for the antes."

Chef went on to say something to the effect of "No, you really don't have to steal at tight 10/20 ante structure, you just have to play solid".

Thoughts?

PS. Chef, I hope this is accurate to what you said, and you don't mind me mentioning it.

[bholdr]

I steal like a bandit when i play 5/10 and even at 3/6 when the game goes tight all of the sudden, but i think at a tight structure like 10/20 (where i haven't ventured yet... soon... soon...) it would be less important, and probably worth waiting for perfect spots to do it (like when you have an A on the door and there's nothing but the bring in and junk yet to act), as opposed to stealing in more marginal spots.

hmmmm....

[Roland]

5/10 has the same structure as 10/20

[PoorLawyer]

who is chef and is he a good player or a bad player?

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
who is chef and is he a good player or a bad player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Chef is vintage_sara, and is regarded as the best stud player on party.

[vintage_sara]

I stand by what I said.

However, it depends on what you call stealing. If I am last to act and everyone has folded or only one player has limped and I have three overcards to their doors, I will on occassion raise. I will do this more often if it's just me and the bring in.

However, the percentage of time I "steal" is probably signficantly less than most players and most likely not really a steal at all. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] Usually, my overcards are live.

Bottom line, solid play is what makes the money. Trying to be too aggressive without the "goods" costs money that you just don't need to give away. I think my advantage online or in ring games comes from a solid image, which I hope is tight aggressive. It helps me against the good players. And, never kills my action against the bad ones.

[vintage_sara]

Actually the structure is not the same in the two games at all.

In $5-10 the bring in is $2
In $10-20 the bring in $3

$10-20 is a more tightly structured game. If you limp with an underpair in 5-10 you are more correct to call if completed behind you verses $10-20, where you are incorrect to call with an underpair for a completion. $10-20 has a tight structure like $20-40 on Party Poker.

[Roland]

I stand corrected.
I should have said that the ante/bet ratio is the same in $5/$10 and $10/$20 – the larger bring-in at $5/$10 can’t make that much of a difference when you’re ante-stealing, right?

[templar999]

[ QUOTE ]

However, it depends on what you call stealing. If I am last to act and everyone has folded or only one player has limped and I have three overcards to their doors, I will on occassion raise. I will do this more often if it's just me and the bring in.

However, the percentage of time I "steal" is probably signficantly less than most players and most likely not really a steal at all. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] Usually, my overcards are live.

Bottom line, solid play is what makes the money. Trying to be too aggressive without the "goods" costs money that you just don't need to give away. I think my advantage online or in ring games comes from a solid image, which I hope is tight aggressive. It helps me against the good players. And, never kills my action against the bad ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

sara,

expert indeed. could not agree more, though my experience is completely at the live games.

beer, by "stealing," you are representing a hand you dont have in an attempt to take down the pot immediately. let's refine this further (apologies, your good post and subsequent responses have got me going in a way that will not stop til i finish =). if you mean "stealing" in the way that 7CSFAP has meant, i.e. raising with a hand that is in trouble if called (i'm paraphrasing), then to that extent, i definitely agree with sara. again only in live games. players almost always think you are stealing with the biggest card, and may call you to the river with a small pair and an awful kicker while you'd be embarassed to show down K high. on the other hand, i think of "stealing" in a semibluff sense, i.e., a hand that is more likely than behind if called, but has a good chance of improving to the best hand. just using some totally arbitrary numbers, say, 40-45% chance of improving to the best hand, but excluding those times where your board gets scary and you previous aggression allows you to win the pot on a later street. if you are thinking of "stealing" in this sense, then, i'd have to say, yes, this is an absolutely essential part of stud. provided that you are moderately better than your opponents, you'd be missing a good chunk of profits by not exploiting these advantages.

with so much more information available to you at the outset relative to the other forms, so many more situations arise in stud where you can make a profitable play for the antes and the BI's without having to see fourth street that i almost never straight steal with three blanks. is completing with (JT)K against 2 opponents both showing 8's a steal? i'd say no. i just think of it as good aggressive play. it's certainly a hand with which you'd happily take down the pot immediately. is completing with (76s)8 against a T and a 2 a steal? what about (66)A against one paint and the bring in? sorry, i dont mean to be redundant. but you encounter these semi-borderline hands so often relative to the big hands which are easy to play. again, if you are make better decisions than your opponents on later, i think the benefits of playing more hands will outweigh the costs of playing slightly worse hands in general.

as an aside, upon reading 7CSFAP for the first time, i had trouble reconciling the examples the authors gave with the premise that these hands are in trouble if called. also many examples seemed somewhat irrelevant to ante stealing, but more towards general 3rd street play. to me, the examples just seemed like proper semi-bluff situations that would arises in other forms as well. they wouldnt be that much trouble as long as you were not reraised and you knew when to properly give it up. i'd be glad to hear others' thoughts.

respectfully,
temp

edit: just thought i should add that my experience has been live at 5-10 up to 20-40.

[Roland]

This should be obvious but I’ll add it anyway:
I think the most critical factor when stealing is your opponent. For instance, a steal against me (as the bring-in) with any hand will clearly show a profit; of course only if you give up immediately when called. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
On the other hand, stealing with three rags against a player who calls with any ace isn’t a good idea…