Definition and clarification of the "stop and go"

[tjh]

Every once in a while a poster will post a hand and if it is a tricky situation someone will suggest a "stop and go" .

I was curious so I searched the archives to find the discussion of "stop and go". I found a link to Greg Raymer's discussion of using a "stop and go" I believe it was in a MTT.

As I recall the hand being discussed was a short stacked individual with a marginal hand in one of the blinds facing a raise. The raise would not put him all in but would pot commit him. So the question was as usual... Push or fold.

Greg proposed a stop and go. Call the bet but push all-in after the flop, NO MATTER WHAT.

I suppose the stop and go has an advantage in this limited case over the push.

If we assume that the bettor is paying attention the mere fact that you called when you are pot-commited is a show of strength. The push on the flop shows once again that you are strong. So you show strength twice. If they are paying attention. You risk that they connect on the flop but you gain the benefit of acting as if you connected somehow still looking good after the flop.

Why is this less good on internet STT?

Well, they are not likely going to be paying attention so the fancy manuever is likely not even going to be noticed.

What size stack is this a good manuever with?
I believe that the "stop and go" is at best an occassional move for a medium-short to short stack. It maximizes the Fold Equity for such a stack because the bettor that bets into you is supposed to be surprised that you called because you are pot committed but then surprised by your show of continued strength on the flop. Real short stacks should just push or fold. Big stacks should use the strength of the stack as a blunt instrument no need to get fancy. Why finesse when you can just pound them ?

So in my opinion the "stop and go" is not very useful in STT. I believe that the manuever relies on players who pay attention so it may be useful at the 100's but not the 11's .

I think we like to discuss it because it is an intersting play to be used in tricky situations. Just like we like to talk about the times you fold AK on the bubble when the very short stack has folded and two players are all-in. Tricky weird situations are interesting but occur rarely and in my mind if you never use the "stop and go" you will be fine.

Anyone else ??

Please correct me if I have a poor understanding of the stop and go. If you play it more than once in 200 tournies then please respond and tell me why you like it.

--
tjh

[citanul]

not once in this post did you say anything new that was not wrong.

you kind of understand the idea of why a stop and go works, but not really, and it has very little to do with "showing strength twice," and very much to do with just plain old giving the guy a chance to fold. the POINT IS THAT THEY MISS THE FLOP 2/3 OF THE TIME JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, and SOMETIMES INCORRECTLY FOLD OR HAVING MISSED THE FLOP EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE GETTING THE ODDS TO CALL. you are creating folding equity out of thin air. capiche?

if you don't use the stop and go more frequently than 1 in 200 tournaments, you are doing things wrong. and the stop and go is indeed, useful in sng play. every single time it works, it has won you a minor victory, or a somewhat major victory, and should be praised (though not necessarilly by posting about it on 2+2). a simple "YES!" will work.

also, no one has outlawed the idea of "hey, i flopped a full house, i will now not just push on the flop." so the "no matter what" is a bit misplaced, though the intention is pretty ok.

part of the point is that you build your "fancy bag of tricks" and then you use them all, in the right spots, because they are the best options available to you. you don't do them for any other reason, ever.

the following:

[ QUOTE ]
Just like we like to talk about the times you fold AK on the bubble when the very short stack has folded and two players are all-in. Tricky weird situations are interesting but occur rarely and in my mind if you never use the "stop and go" you will be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

is just absolutely absurd. the "interesting" as you call them, spots that people have been discussing folding AK on the bubble are in spots where there IS NO OTHER CALLER OF A PUSH, or it is your turn to act and there has been no raise in front of you, not spots where there are all ins that are called. the reason why? those spots aren't interesting! that's right, they're not! because the decision is trivially easy. (this isn't saying that a bulk of the other AK on the bubble posts aren't trivial and silly, but just that your stupid rant about stuff was just way off the mark.)

and there i'll conclude with that: your stupid rant was way off the mark.

my response: i like the stop and go because it is often the best possible decision that i can make. and the whole goal is to make the best possible decisions as often as possible. i like the stop and go because it makes me money.

citanul

[nate1729]

Whoa, dude, stop being such a jerk. He got some strategy wrong. Chill out.

Original poster: citanul's answer is a good standard one; just ignore the bizarre, unwarranted meanness.

--Nate

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Whoa, dude, stop being such a jerk.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Nate, I can't, I hate people.

citanul

[something smells]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whoa, dude, stop being such a jerk.

--Nate


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry Nate, I can't, I hate people.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this summarizes why you don't want links to good strategy in the FAQ

[Winwood]

[ QUOTE ]
Original poster: citanul's answer is a good standard one; just ignore the bizarre, unwarranted meanness.

[/ QUOTE ]

That should be put in the FAQ somewhere.

Just kidding citanul! Whoa boy!

[tjh]

Thanks guys for the update and the info. I see so much of "try a stop and go ? " and very little analysis. Thanks for making this a lively helpful thread. Citanul of course offered his friendly, thoughtful and thourough analysis [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] that led others to add additional info.

As for ..
[ QUOTE ]
you kind of understand the idea of why a stop and go works, but not really, and it has very little to do with "showing strength twice," and very much to do with just plain old giving the guy a chance to fold. the POINT IS THAT THEY MISS THE FLOP 2/3 OF THE TIME JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, and SOMETIMES INCORRECTLY FOLD OR HAVING MISSED THE FLOP EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE GETTING THE ODDS TO CALL. you are creating folding equity out of thin air. capiche?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is what I said or meant to say. The stop and go does not give the guy any more chances to fold than a reraise all-in would. One chance to fold. It just gives him more time to think about it, a chance to miss the flop, and a chance to lose confidence in his situation. Note that if he misses 2/3 of the time then he connects 1/3 of the time so without a doubt you are giving free cards in exchange for a "better" time to give him the chance to fold.

The issue I have with the Stop and Go is wether or not the benefit of the bet post flop having "created folding equity out of thin air" as Citanul calls it outweighs the risk of giving him three free cards.

In most situations if a bet commits you to the pot then you should go all in right then. In some situations you may want to apply the stop and go. I would contend that overusing the stop and go is more dangerous than not using it enough. With that in mind I imagine that most players have other leaks to worry about before they fine tune their "stop and go" strategy.


[ QUOTE ]
also, no one has outlawed the idea of "hey, i flopped a full house, i will now not just push on the flop." so the "no matter what" is a bit misplaced, though the intention is pretty ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the rule of a stop and go that you are commited to the hand, isn't an accurate translation of "commited to the hand" = "bet allin post flop NO MATTER WHAT". Thanks for adding some new and helpful insight to the topic at hand..


[ QUOTE ]
he following:

[ QUOTE ]

Just like we like to talk about the times you fold AK on the bubble when the very short stack has folded and two players are all-in. Tricky weird situations are interesting but occur rarely and in my mind if you never use the "stop and go" you will be fine.


[/ QUOTE ]


is just absolutely absurd. the "interesting" as you call them, spots that people have been discussing folding AK on the bubble are in spots where there IS NO OTHER CALLER OF A PUSH, or it is your turn to act and there has been no raise in front of you, not spots where there are all ins that are called. the reason why? those spots aren't interesting! that's right, they're not! because the decision is trivially easy. (this isn't saying that a bulk of the other AK on the bubble posts aren't trivial and silly, but just that your stupid rant about stuff was just way off the mark.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually the post I was referring to involved bubble play in which there was one stack of 400 the rest 3,000 or so blinds were 200 and the short stack had folded, button pushed, SB pushed and the BB had AK. Interesting.. yes. Helpful in a majority of STT tourneys to know that some 2+2 posters would fold this ? HARDLY.

So your stupid rant about my feeling that a lot of the good players prefer to discuss "interesting" situations is coincidentally way off the mark. You guys love to discuss the "interesting" stuff.

Just a heads up to the guys that do not know what to do with a pair of pocket tens in level one. You need to figure that out, and then a few other basic strategies before you master the application of the stop and go.

[ QUOTE ]
and there i'll conclude with that: your stupid rant was way off the mark.

my response: i like the stop and go because it is often the best possible decision that i can make. and the whole goal is to make the best possible decisions as often as possible. i like the stop and go because it makes me money.


[/ QUOTE ]

My post was meant to encourage discussion of a topic that is often mentioned but rarely explained. My goal was to get it explained more fully. I was neither arrogant or rude. I left that up to Citanul. As for the description "stupid rant" I believe Citanul's post was more rantlike and less helpful than my humble posting of opinion and request for other opinions.

Here is my take on why a stop and go works. When I raise preflop I am being actively aggressive. If I am reraised I am likely to call because I am still in aggression mode. If I am called and I see a flop I am no longer pure preflop aggression. I am thinking things through, counting my outs, putting the caller on a hand. When the stop and go followup bet comes it puts me on the defensive and alters my judgement as to what the bettor is holding. That is all.

Judging by the support it gets from rude people I call the stop and go..
"fancy play for rude folks"

--
tjh

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that is what I said or meant to say. The stop and go does not give the guy any more chances to fold than a reraise all-in would. One chance to fold. It just gives him more time to think about it, a chance to miss the flop, and a chance to lose confidence in his situation. Note that if he misses 2/3 of the time then he connects 1/3 of the time so without a doubt you are giving free cards in exchange for a "better" time to give him the chance to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, this it the point you get wrong. you have to commit yourself to the pot means that you dont have much money left. if you raise with this money preflop the opponent will be correct to call, no matter the cards. and he will call for sure. if you just call and go all in on the flop (unless you floped a monster) he will be correct to call again, but sometimes he will make the mistake to fold here.

what that means is, that the result will be the same for stop and go and preflop push if you opponent plays correctly, but you gain a chance that you opponent folds incorrectly if you pull the stop and go move.

[jcm4ccc]

I don't know how much clearer the responses to your thread could be, and you still don't get it. Here's a list of your incorrect statements:

1. Without a doubt you are giving free cards in exchange for a "better" time to give your opponent the chance to fold. [Your opponent is going to see the flop regardless of your actions]

2. The issue I have with the Stop and Go is whether or not the benefit of the bet post flop outweighs the risk of giving him three free cards. [There is no risk to the Stop and Go in the classic situation. None. Zero risk. If you understood the Stop and Go, you would understand that].

3. Isn't the rule of a stop and go that you are commited to the hand, isn't an accurate translation of "commited to the hand" = "bet allin post flop NO MATTER WHAT". [You're not saabpo]

4. Just a heads up to the guys that do not know what to do with a pair of pocket tens in level one. You need to figure that out, and then a few other basic strategies before you master the application of the stop and go [It is much more difficult to master the playing of pocket tens than it is to master the stop and go. The former could take a lifetime. The latter should take about 5 minutes].

5. Here is my take on why a stop and go works. When I raise preflop I am being actively aggressive. If I am reraised I am likely to call because I am still in aggression mode. [Even a passive, weak/tight idiot is not going to raise 600 chips and fold preflop to an extra 200 chips].

6. Judging by the support it gets from rude people I call the stop and go "fancy play for rude folks" [It's not fancy at all. It's really a very crude play that shouldn't fool a child. That's what makes it so much fun when it works].

Dude, I don't think you were flamed that hard on this thread. When you act like an authority on a subject that you really don't understand at all, you have to expect to get flamed some.


Let me give you an example in which it would be a mistake NOT to use the stop and go.

Blinds 200/400
Opponent 1: 3000 chips
Opponent 2: 3000 chips
Opponent 3: 3000 chips
You: 1000 chips

You are in the BB and are dealt JTo. You decide that that's a good enough hand to play, given your desperate situation.

Opponent 1 raises to 800.
Opponent 2 folds.
Opponent 3 folds.
You: ??

You have 2 choices:
1. You can call the bet and then push the flop (otherwise known as a Stop and Go), or
2. You can push preflop.

Option 1 entails no risk (absolutely none), and increases your chances of winning this hand by a small percentage. Therefore, YOU ARE LOSING MONEY IN THE LONG RUN if you don't use the stop-and-go.

And really, is the stop-and-go that hard to learn? Here's how to do it, in the vast majority of situations:

1. You are in the BB.
2. You are short stacked.
3. You have decided that you must win this hand NO MATTER WHAT.
4. When the betting comes back to you, there is only one person left in the hand.
5. That person's bet does not put you all-in.
6. You believe that there is 0% chance that you can get this person to fold with an all-in bet.
7. Therefore call the bet, and push the flop.

#4 is important, because the Stop and Go is unlikely to work against 2 opponents. Plus, your 2 opponents might be afraid of each other, and so you might be able to see this hand to the river without putting any more chips in.

[tjh]

[ QUOTE ]
You are in the BB and are dealt JTo. You decide that that's a good enough hand to play, given your desperate situation.

Opponent 1 raises to 800.
Opponent 2 folds.
Opponent 3 folds.
You: ??

You have 2 choices:
1. You can call the bet and then push the flop (otherwise known as a Stop and Go), or
2. You can push preflop.

Option 1 entails no risk (absolutely none), and increases your chances of winning this hand by a small percentage. Therefore, YOU ARE LOSING MONEY IN THE LONG RUN if you don't use the stop-and-go.

And really, is the stop-and-go that hard to learn? Here's how to do it, in the vast majority of situations:

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if I over-reacted to Citanul's post. I did not intend to sound like an authority. I just though the stop-and-go could use some clarification and discussion.

As for it being a money making play in the long run. Has anyone done any statistical analysis on that ? The assumption is that your opponent is dumb enough to not call when they should after the flop but assuming that they are smart enough to call a pre-flop all-in. I do see the logic in the stop-and-go and a lot of folks do not do any sort of assement of pot-size vs bet when you bet post-flop. Certainly some analysis should be done to defend the assumption that it is a slight improvment over just going all in preflop.

--
tjh