Optimal Play in home game (long)

[EMcWilliams]

Ok, I just finished up a home game and had a long debate with some friends over the optimal stradegy in our home game......

Description of Game:

We play No-Limit hold'em 25/50 cent blinds, buy ins ranging from 10 to 25. Most recently we have played 25$ buy in, but there are times that we revert to our overly naive 10$ buyin. I will always buy in more then once, and it does keep the fish returning, so that is not my concern. As I said though, lately we have been playing 25$ buy in.
We play with 5-7 people on average, with different levels of people throughout the night. We play for about 3-5 hours per night, 4 nights a week. Each game there are 3 players who have an idea as to what poker is, and the rest are fish that make the ones on party look intellengent. An average description is a 17-19yo male, seen poker on TV, does not know what position, pot odds or implied odds are about, the gap concept they think is about someone wearing a Gap sweatshirt, basically think poker is a bunch of bluffs. Most are calling stations, some more so than others, but on average loose passive and clueless. As I said, there are three players who win regularly and are not clueless, Myself, a TAG, and 2 LAG's who border on maniac sometimes. The funny thing is that they will always win (and big) and I will win but not the same magnitude.
They argue that since we only play a limited number of hands, playing solid ABC poker is useless. They think that playing TAG is stupid. As luck would have it, the only observation that the fish have is that I am a TAG. As such, they fold a lot to my pre flop raises, and if not, will almost always fold to any flop scare card. Anyway, back to what I was saying, the LAGs are arguing that in our game, LAG is the only way to make money. They insist that since I need to loosen up and bluff more, and I dont think they are correct. In SSHE (I know it is limit oriented) they make the point that "tight is right". But the LAGS always win. Do I need to loosen up more, or should I continue as I am. What is the optimal play for this type of game? Is there such thing as too textbook?

PART II:
Another topic which we argued about is post flop play. They say that I am too aggressive (is that possible) and am missing out on EV. They insist I overbet, which to them means betting the pot. They make the point that fish are not aware of the pot, but I know if I don't bet the right amount they are making winning plays by chasing. They insist I need to slow down, and bet less. While the pot may be 20BB, the fish will still fold to 3 and 4 BB bets. I know if I make less, I am making plays of -EV. They do make the point that the amount of bluffing that occurs is outragious, and I should capitialize on it, but being passive is not right. I am giving them infinite odds to outdraw me. Should I not bet when I am a favorite. The fish know that when an A hits, they are in trouble, and I doubt they will bluff. Should (and how) do I use this to my advantage?

I have a lot of questions honestly, stuff that I do not think books will give me. I think I put up enough for one night, and i'll ask some more later. I feel bad about writing this much, but I do think there are many others out there with questions like this. I NEED YOUR HELP. PLEASE!!!!

[senjitsu]

Your friends are right (but for the wrong reason).

In a game like the one you describe, it is correct to play looser and more aggressively. This isn't because of the limited number of hands (which is irrelevant). Its because:

1. You are playing short handed.
2. Your blinds are very high in porportion to the buyin.

7 people is fairly short-handed. 5 is very short-handed. This has two effects:

1. In a five handed game, the effect of the blinds is twice as high. You are paying $1.50 (almost ten percent of your stack) every ten hands.

This means that it becomes more important to make more plays at the blinds, and it means that it becomes more important to defend your blinds with re-raises. In a 5 handed game in the BB, a hand like A6o or 9Qs becomes defensible. You simply can't make money paying $1.50 every ten hands and waiting for a premium hand. Because of this, it is almost always incorrect to limp in a five handed game.

2. The relative strength of your hand is higher. Post flop, this means that, barring some exceptional circumstance, TPNK can almost always be played aggressively (whereas, ten handed, it could just be folded)
If your game is very textbook, ramp down your pre-flop raising requirements a lot, especially if no one has entered the pot. 6 handed, Depending on the passivity and aggressiveness of the other players, I would have preflop opening requirements that look something like

UTG and UTG+1 -- raise all pocket pairs above 5, any ace, any two cards above Jack. Making early position raises is important if you're trying to screw around with Loose-aggressive players because their strategy often falls apart when someone takes the initiative away from them. Most likely, you have been frusterated by the LAGs because you're standards are too high to open from early position, and you never get to open from late position because one of them already has.


UTG+2. Raise any pocket pair, any ace, any two cards above 10, any two suited cards avove 9. Any Suited connectors and one-gaps with two cards above 7. With 2 or 3 limpers, take out the weaker aces.

Button: Raise with any two cards if it is folded to you. Otherwise, use the guidelinjes for UTG+2.

SB -- If it is folded to you, or if there is a single limper, raise with any two cards.

BB -- raise with any two cards if there are fewer than two other people in the pot. Use UTG standards otherwise.

Regarding the size of your bets -- If you're talking about bets designed to pick up the pot, Id go for 1/3 to 1/2 of the pot, typically. You're getting a much better return on your investment.

If you are talking about the appropriate size of a value bet:
1. Against a loose, aggressive player, check and call. That is really the most aggressive play against a LAG, since it makes it likely that they will bluff off all their chips. Betting and raising will just give them a heads up.
2. Against a passive player, make the min bet on the flop, 2X on the turn and 3X on the river. Thats the most hes going to pay you off.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I just finished up a home game and had a long debate with some friends over the optimal stradegy in our home game......

Description of Game:

We play No-Limit hold'em 25/50 cent blinds, buy ins ranging from 10 to 25. Most recently we have played 25$ buy in, but there are times that we revert to our overly naive 10$ buyin. I will always buy in more then once, and it does keep the fish returning, so that is not my concern. As I said though, lately we have been playing 25$ buy in.
We play with 5-7 people on average, with different levels of people throughout the night. We play for about 3-5 hours per night, 4 nights a week. Each game there are 3 players who have an idea as to what poker is, and the rest are fish that make the ones on party look intellengent. An average description is a 17-19yo male, seen poker on TV, does not know what position, pot odds or implied odds are about, the gap concept they think is about someone wearing a Gap sweatshirt, basically think poker is a bunch of bluffs. Most are calling stations, some more so than others, but on average loose passive and clueless. As I said, there are three players who win regularly and are not clueless, Myself, a TAG, and 2 LAG's who border on maniac sometimes. The funny thing is that they will always win (and big) and I will win but not the same magnitude.
They argue that since we only play a limited number of hands, playing solid ABC poker is useless. They think that playing TAG is stupid. As luck would have it, the only observation that the fish have is that I am a TAG. As such, they fold a lot to my pre flop raises, and if not, will almost always fold to any flop scare card. Anyway, back to what I was saying, the LAGs are arguing that in our game, LAG is the only way to make money. They insist that since I need to loosen up and bluff more, and I dont think they are correct. In SSHE (I know it is limit oriented) they make the point that "tight is right". But the LAGS always win. Do I need to loosen up more, or should I continue as I am. What is the optimal play for this type of game? Is there such thing as too textbook?

PART II:
Another topic which we argued about is post flop play. They say that I am too aggressive (is that possible) and am missing out on EV. They insist I overbet, which to them means betting the pot. They make the point that fish are not aware of the pot, but I know if I don't bet the right amount they are making winning plays by chasing. They insist I need to slow down, and bet less. While the pot may be 20BB, the fish will still fold to 3 and 4 BB bets. I know if I make less, I am making plays of -EV. They do make the point that the amount of bluffing that occurs is outragious, and I should capitialize on it, but being passive is not right. I am giving them infinite odds to outdraw me. Should I not bet when I am a favorite. The fish know that when an A hits, they are in trouble, and I doubt they will bluff. Should (and how) do I use this to my advantage?

I have a lot of questions honestly, stuff that I do not think books will give me. I think I put up enough for one night, and i'll ask some more later. I feel bad about writing this much, but I do think there are many others out there with questions like this. I NEED YOUR HELP. PLEASE!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

[beedubblyer]

You could mix up the cash games with tournaments - or speed tourneys before the cash game. You'd keep the fish interested by creating a more level playing field, so the better players don't ALWAYS win.

You also wanna improve the standard of play from the fishes, because a) you'll be able to read them better, and can start running more complex plays - and b) your game will only improive if you're playing with better players.

You can beat a sucker many times, but you can only break him once.

[EMcWilliams]

I thank both of you for your help. As I said in the OP the game is inherently flawed, this is not a typical poker game. I feel as if I needed someone to tell me its ok to play LAGGY in this type of game, and not typical TAG. I had about a billion questions last night, but I have seem to forgotten them all. If I remember more, Ill ask them later. Any other advice??

[Mathemagician]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a passive player, make the min bet on the flop, 2X on the turn and 3X on the river. Thats the most hes going to pay you off.

[/ QUOTE ]Aren't you giving them odds to chase pretty much any draw, even if they don't know it? Your undersized bets are forcing them to play correctly (by accident). Isn't it better to have them keep folding to correctly sized bets than to give them odds to call and outdraw you? Since they're folding too much to pot-sized bets, I would recommend simply increasing your frequency of making these bets so that their folding becomes incorrect.

M