Flop top two with flush draw on board - how'd I play it?

kt421 · #1 05-26-2005, 08:46 PM

Dug this out of the PT database while doing my first real review of my play. It hasn't been very pleasant, as I'm learning that I don't play very well, but perhaps I'm on the road to improvement.

How would you play this? Sorry, no reads - old hand.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero calls, UTG+1 (Villian) calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises, Villian calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Villian calls, MP2 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

River: (11 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Villian bets, SB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

On the river I knew I was beat. I'm wondering if there was a better line to either (a) get out quicker or (b) have a better chance of folding Villian. I also suspect that I should have raised pf, but I don't think that would have pushed him out (or would that even have been the reason to raise?). Thanks for any input.

Pokey · #2 05-26-2005, 08:50 PM

For reads, you can always go to the GameTime tab and manually enter the names of the opponents from the hand. That will quickly bring up their statistics and presto! Instant reads.

Preflop needs a raise: your hand is strong enough to warrant it, and it plays better short-handed.

Flop, turn, and river are all perfect. You press your edge until you're sure you're brutalized, then you make your crying call on the river getting 12:1 odds. If SB had check-raised on the river, you can safely fold this for one bet.

All told, I think you did pretty darned well on this hand.

QBert · #3 05-26-2005, 08:50 PM

You played it well except it should be check-fold on the river.

An UTG raise preflop may have solved this problem before it started though.

QBert · #4 05-26-2005, 08:51 PM

There are 4 diamonds on board. I can't see how he can call the river.

Pokey · #5 05-26-2005, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
it should be check-fold on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

With no reads, I don't give the last bettor credit for the flush just because of one bet. You beat almost any non-flush and you're getting 12:1 odds heads-up; you've got to make that crying call. If villain is bluffing just 10% of the time (and I think that's a pretty safe assumption), you come out ahead in the long run.

kt421 · #6 05-27-2005, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For reads, you can always go to the GameTime tab and manually enter the names of the opponents from the hand. That will quickly bring up their statistics and presto! Instant reads.

Preflop needs a raise: your hand is strong enough to warrant it, and it plays better short-handed.

Flop, turn, and river are all perfect. You press your edge until you're sure you're brutalized, then you make your crying call on the river getting 12:1 odds. If SB had check-raised on the river, you can safely fold this for one bet.

All told, I think you did pretty darned well on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I'm a big loser with KQo, and I'm trying to figure out exactly why that is. This hand seemed to play right (except the pf raise and perhaps the river call) but I wanted to get some feedback.

felix83 · #7 05-27-2005, 01:54 AM

This may be one of those situations that Sklansky refers to in SSHE that you should wait till the turn to raise, i.e. call the flop and then, if the flush card misses, raise the SB's turn bet to leave the field facing 2 cold. Because of the number of callers PF and the size of the pot already, I don't think your flop raise will get flush draws to fold. I know some people believe you should always get people to pay for their draws, but it's just a different way to play it. I'm still trying to figure out which is best myself, so take it all very lightly. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

ArturiusX · #8 05-27-2005, 02:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This may be one of those situations that Sklansky refers to in SSHE that you should wait till the turn to raise, i.e. call the flop and then, if the flush card misses, raise the SB's turn bet to leave the field facing 2 cold. Because of the number of callers PF and the size of the pot already, I don't think your flop raise will get flush draws to fold. I know some people believe you should always get people to pay for their draws, but it's just a different way to play it. I'm still trying to figure out which is best myself, so take it all very lightly. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats only on a monotone family pot.

fireman664 · #9 05-27-2005, 02:23 AM

I totally disagree with a preflop raise from UTG with KQo.

I do believe I read in SSh or HFAP that there isnt much difference in equity between calling, or raising preflop with KQ....but it weems with me If I raise with, and get called in several places, I'm dominated, yet have a harder time getting away from it because I have choosen to be the aggressor.....could just be me though

fisherman112 · #10 05-27-2005, 03:54 AM

if you see KQo is a loser for you on pokertracker, i think your best move in general is to fold this hand pf from early position. offsuit paint gets you in a lot of trouble oop and you're clearly making money by not playing a loser. if you want to work on improving your winrate with the hand, play it in late position and really try to extract maximum EV, if it starts to win for you, then try reintroducing it into your EP playable list.