Psychological Reason Why..addictive personality.. HELP (somewhat long)

[raptor517]

ok, let me give yall a little bit of history first. I have been playing professional poker since february 1st. i post a LOT on the stt forum, and am respected fairly highly over there. i do VERY well playing at the 55 and 109 levels 8-12 tabling, too many hours a day. doing this, i should be able to make around 6-800 a day on average. i have played over 10k sngs, so variance has taken its toll in every form.

now, onto the problem i face. i have a VERY comfortable bankroll for the 109 sngs, and a quite comfortable bankroll should i decide to play the 215s at all. however, i find myself tempted over and over again to play in the BIG games. the step 5s, etc. i will open up a table, see a few fish, no pros, and decide it is a GREAT game to beat.

another problem i have is table games. ill go to vegas/reno/tunica, whatever, to play the poker tournament at that time. however, i find myself at the pai gow table gambling it up. ill find myself playing blackjack for 2k a hand. ill find myself slinging the dice into the night. in general, i am very careful about spending money. i dont buy things i dont really need. i dont have a 60" plasma hooked up in my living room. i DO have a badass 4 monitor setup for poker, but thats a business expense [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

what i dont understand, is WHY i feel a need to play these foolish games. to even play BEATABLE games that are out of my bankroll is quite foolish, and i should know better. i have always thought of myself as a fairly intelligent person, and i really enjoy learning about how my mind works. ive actually just ordered a couple books, duno if they are good, but they cost half the rake on a step 5, so i figure i cant go wrong.

The Addictive Personality: Understanding the Addictive Process and Compulsive Behavior by Craig Nakken

Addictive Thinking, Second Edition: Understanding Self-Deception by Abraham J Twerski

ok, so self deception. i open up a step 5 table, and see a few fish, so in my mind i tell myself i can beat the game. so i sit down and play. no big deal, its +ev for me to be there. right? maybe. brings ya back to rounders a little bit eh? so anyways, i KNOW i can beat the 55s, i KNOW i can beat the 109s. i have the bankroll for those. i can play those forever. all day, every day, and make 200k a year. why cant i just DO that? i would make more than nearly anyone i know, and by having a job that is at least SOMEWHAT entertaining. how come i have to take so many shots? why do i feel a need to play pai gow? playing a clearly -ev game.. why would i do that?

i KNOW i can beat the step 5s. there is no question in my mind about that. people make god awful plays at every level of poker, regardless how 'good' they think they are. I of course am not excluded from this, but i am confident in my abilities and have proven myself over thousands of tournaments.

playing pai gow, step 5s, and various other table games, along with cash games beyond my limitations, i have dropped over 25k. this is unacceptable to me. i simply cannot let this happen anymore. it has been 3.5 months, and had i never played one, i would be on track for 200k+ this year. but no. i had to take a shot. i had to gamble. i dont want to do that anymore.

so anyways, i guess what im asking, is nothing really. well, im asking for advice. thoughts. whatever you can give me. i DO enjoy playing poker. i suppose i enjoy the risk of having a large sum of money on the line, and winning. who doesnt? i want to learn a bit of self control. how do i do this? how do i teach myself NOT to play out of my roll. NOT to take so many shots? (i think taking an occasional shot is a good thing).

so anyways, anyone that has any thoughts on this matter, please chime in. i intend to play poker seriously for quite a while, as i enjoy having the freedom of making my own schedule. also, some of the people i have met THROUGH poker have been some of the most intelligent and interesting people i have come to know. anyways, if you have made it this far, thankyou for your time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] holla

[Smockstack]

Just a few thoughts.

At 19 years old, earning $200K + a year by playing poker is rediculously succesful. Only 2% of wage earners in America will exceed that in their lifetime. With that in mind, realize that life will catch up with you awfully quickly. It may seem like nothing to drop $12,000 gamboolling it up at the Pai Gow when you know you will make that back in 30 days of solid poker play. However, if think about the long term effect on losing that money it is a little more sobering.

Let's assume you had invested that $12,000 in a moderate risk mutual fund earning 10% for the next 40 years (making you 59 years old). That $12,00 would have turned into $543,111 dollars with compounded interest. Had that been invested in a ROTH IRA, that money would be interest free. A cool half mil at retirement for simply avoiding a few hours of adrenaline rush is as good of reason as I need to do so.

Let's also assume that you took 25% of your winnings and invested that money for three years in a the same scenario as outlined above. At your retirement, ( just by investing 1/4 of you stake) you would have $6,788,889 to retire with. Pay your self 10% off the top as a salary and you live on 678,889 a year and never dip into your kitty....the interest alone pays for your living expenses.

When I was 19, i had just failed out of college because I HATED IT!!! Now, I'm 27, I am a crime analyst for a municipal police department and work part time as a 911 operator. I earn at most $40,000 a year in salary for 50+ hours of work. I enjoy my job and get more reward from doing it well than from my income. At poker, I am at a 0% ROI at the 22s and am up from my origianl $50 investment to about $2,700 from Ring games and Bonus Whoring. I won't ever be in the same situation as you are in even though I would love to be there.

Your life is going to change very quickly in the next 10 years. If you aren't prepared for it, the drudgery of the 9-5 is going to sober up those high stakes games in a heart beat. Take my advice, set some money aside for a rainy day, pay your taxes on your winnings, get out of debt while you can and never be pwn3ed by the bank again, pay cash for......everything including cars and your house. You are in a situation where you can change your family tree and be very......very......wealthy.

Best of luck.....and please, keep posting on the STT forum, you are very entertaining.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

STOP.

The single most important factor in differentiating between a Professional Gambler and a Pathological Gambler is discipline. If you cannot maintain discipline over your gambling, no amount of poker accumen will allow you long term success. Gambling becomes -EV. Poker lore is replete with stories of phenoms at the table who blew it all on craps, sports betting or some other -EV gambling venture.

Get help to stay on track, or stop playing.

-Dr. Milo

[Jeffage]

Hypothetically...if you went to a shrink for help controlling your urge to gamble (for example, you illustrate you're a longterm winner but say you have a tendency to blow off huge sums gambling at games beyond your limit), wouldn't they all just tell you you have a gambling problem and need to quit? In my own situation, I blew an absurd amt recently but am still up decently for the year (the amt was at a very high limit). I also have tax records for 3 years to indicate I make a lot playing. But I'm still upset about my tendency to continually push the envelope until I hit a hard wall. I think most psychologists would say "You have a pathological gambling problem and need gambler's anonymous." Am I wrong? I've actually considered this in the past (to look at why I sometimes have self destructive urges like this), but then figured I would just get a stock answer.

Jeff

[gasgod]

Good post. Hiring a financial advisor/accountant might be a good move to get some stability, and perhaps some discipline, in his finances.

GG

[Dan Mezick]

This is a very interesting thread.

Among those involved in formal games of chance, there are compulsive gamblers, and there are also people who do very well exploiting small edges who cannot hold on to their winnings. And there is a huge difference.

There are also others-- business people for example-- that exploit very large edges playing informal games of chance ("business") that also cannot hold on to their money.

The latter two examples-- the solid poker guy and the solid business guy-- are not compulsive gamblers. They simply cannot retain the majority of their earnings, and further they typically do not understand the unconscious forces that are driving most of this limiting behavior. They are at least competent at their chosen craft yet they are uneasy.

Most people who cannot hold on to their money do not BELIEVE they deserve it. (This is especially true of windfall events, like a big score in business, or poker.) Having a problem with BELIEFS about deserving the rewards is NOT compulsive gambling. It’s an opportunity for self-exploration.

The content so far on this thread seems to be created by people that are definitely not complusive gamblers. With these posters, I'm willing to bet there is very little emotional content involved while playing poker. That’s the tell. Poker for them is profitable and “boring”—that is, emotionally void. These guys are not playing for thrills. It’s for the cash.

For example, Raptor plays to win at poker and exploits small edges with relatively large amounts of money at stake, and does so very successfully. He has a definite system and knows what he is doing and why. All of this is under fully conscious control.

Later, he finds himself mysteriously drawn to –EV risk-taking activity way outside his proven poker-playing system. The motivation for this behavior is probably mysterious to him, and largely unconscious in nature. It causes an uneasiness bordering on self-doubt and self-distrust.

The horrific results from these adventures cause him to lack actual trust in himself, reinforcing the loop of negative feedback and inner distrust. He wonders if he is a compulsive gambler.

The answer is no-- and the reason is simple. The mysterious behavior is caused by deeply held limiting beliefs which he is unwilling to consciously acknowledge. For example he may hold a belief that

· He doesn’t actually deserve the rewards
· Money made playing poker is immoral and wrong
· He is guilty of some transgression at some level, and therefore needs to be punished
· If he earns more than N per year, he’s a bad person
· Too much money is bad for you
· Income is a function of how much clock time I put into my job. The more time I put in, the more money I make. Getting “sudden money” is evil and wrong and bad. Earning ten grand in ten minutes is not a good thing.


Devising a winning system and following it are two entirely different things. A “System” defines rules for every aspect of the activity, ie, “I do not play for more than 4 hours without a 1 hour break” or “if I lose 15% or more of my bankroll in a single 4 hour session I take 2 days off”. These kinds of rules are indicative of a good understanding of personal temperament and associated risk tolerance. Other rules such as “I fold a premium pocket pair to (2) overcards if there is a bet and 1 or more callers” are more mechanical and technical and automatic. Both kinds of rules are absolutely necessary.

So the typical pattern is that the rational player:

· Has a clearly defined system.
· It’s customized for the player and is informed by his temperament, risk tolerance, etc.
· It’s a total winner when the rules are followed.
· After using the system for awhile, it gets refined and gets more clearly understood, and even more precisely defined. It works even better.
· The system is his alone. The design and implementation is customized for one individual--himself.

All is well. Then, in a later episode, in some other activity, following no real system, serious money is lost . Or a serious loss occurs engaging in the “system” activity but without following the rules.

When recapping the dramatic “what happened?”, it may feel as if you were in some kind of “trance state” during the event.

If this is you, you are holding on to some deeply held (limiting) beliefs that are driving your (limiting) behavior. The limiting behavior honors and reinforces deeply held beliefs (and associated feelings) that you are unwilling to acknowledge consciously.

This repetitive trance-like (“unconscious”) episodic behavior continues until you bring the beliefs and associated feelings to a fully conscious level of experience and understanding. Here they are processed, and discharged. New beliefs are developed and associated references (“experience”) reinforce them.

Traders are like poker players in that they encounter these same exact issues. The book The Disciplined Trader and Trading in the Zone by Mark Douglas are great resources for those willing to do the necessary work.

***

"i do VERY well playing at the 55 and 109 levels 8-12 tabling, too many hours a day. doing this, i should be able to make around 6-800 a day on average."

Seems to indicate you do not strictly follow your rules, or your rules are not formally written down, or you do not honor your own temperament by staying within associated boundaries. All of the above increases dramatic emotional content.


"now, onto the problem i face. i have a VERY comfortable bankroll for the 109 sngs, and a quite comfortable bankroll should i decide to play the 215s at all. however, i find myself tempted over and over again to play in the BIG games. the step 5s, etc. i will open up a table, see a few fish, no pros, and decide it is a GREAT game to beat."

This attraction appears driven by unconscious forces.

"what i dont understand, is WHY i feel a need to play these foolish games. to even play BEATABLE games that are out of my bankroll is quite foolish, and i should know better."

You do know better-- at the conscious level of understanding. Which is not driving the behavior here. Obvious, right?

"so anyways, i KNOW i can beat the 55s, i KNOW i can beat the 109s. i have the bankroll for those. i can play those forever. all day, every day, and make 200k a year. why cant i just DO that?"

Likely, the systematic winning (businesslike) activity is largely emotionally void, and the attraction of this other behavior has to do with the dramatic emotions experienced before during and after engagement in same.

"playing pai gow, step 5s, and various other table games, along with cash games beyond my limitations, i have dropped over 25k. this is unacceptable to me. i simply cannot let this happen anymore. it has been 3.5 months, and had i never played one, i would be on track for 200k+ this year. but no. i had to take a shot. i had to gamble. i dont want to do that anymore."

This is the classic "forced awareness" experience described by Mark Douglas in his books. You are there.

[raptor517]

looks like you put a bit of time and effort into this. thankyou for that. you are very correct, i DO know better than to throw down 10k at the pai gow table. i KNOW that i spent all month working, sitting in front of my computer, grinding out the sngs to make that money. im starting to understand a BIT better what it REALLY takes to play professional poker. i would say greater than 50% of it is bankroll management. once i obtain a mastery of that.. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] holla

[Al Schoonmaker]

Dr. Milo,

Since you're more qualified in this area, I will defer to you. Besides, I agree with you.

But let me add a little. There are a some encouraging signs.

1. He has posted here, and his post includes the word "addictive." Clearly, he has some insight into his problem and wants help with it. We both know many addicts who are deep in denial: They insisit, "I can handle it." He has taken a tentative first step: Admitting (at least partially) that he has a problem.

2. The books he has purchased sound good to me. They should provide some very useful insights. I have not read any of them, but do know that Twerski is very highly regarded.

3. The critical issue is: DOES HE TAKE THE NEXT STEP? He is now trying to cure himself, and he has almost no chance of doing so. He has to take the next step, admitting that the problem is so severe and dangerous that he has to get help. That help can come from either Gamblers Anonymous or a professional. It can NOT come from this forum, except insofar as the comments here cause him to get significant help.

Regards,

Al

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Get help to stay on track, or stop playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, clearly im not going to stop playing, as i am on track to make 60k this year in rakeback alone. and yes, i fully intend to get help to stay on track. im working on that [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] holla

[LetYouDown]

Not intended as a hijack at all, especially considering the forum...but what kind of VPIP do you have when you're 12 tabling? Is it absurdly low or are you able to stay focused enough that you can still make effective "plays" at smaller pots? 4 tabling I can do this effectively, 8 tabling I'd imagine would be a slight struggle. But, 12 tabling I'd imagine my VPIP would be in the roughly 10% range.