KQ vs tough player

Akimka · #1 05-21-2005, 04:55 AM

1. Check-raise?
2. Call-down to SD is proper of fold it to turn raise? No chances that he bluffing ace and don't have it?

UTG+1 is TA-A with good stats.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $2.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

brazilio · #2 05-21-2005, 05:02 AM

What's with the stop and go, you now know he's not afraid of the Ace at the expense of 2BB and a gutshot gained, since I'm betting your Q outs are dead. That was expensive information, and then you don't fold on the river when you got it.

oreogod · #3 05-21-2005, 05:12 AM

Check/Call the Turn (going with my read I might fold).
check/Fold the River.

The way it was played your hand doesnt seem to make sense. I dont think a TAG is going to 3-bet u on the flop to often if they are afraid of that K. Most likely your up against KK (unlikely), AK or AA. If hes got AK you are drawing to 4 outs on the turn.

Going with my read I think its OKAY if u folded the turn (if u check call, u will be getting 8:1...shorter odds than 10.5 u need to make the call...at the most, if a T comes on the river, u will have just made only the break even odds for your hand, i dont think you will be able to get many extra bets. So not much profit, maybe .5-1 BBs at most), either way u should fold that river.

EDIT: Of course u can include your overcards at a discounted price, which i didnt do, based on the fact that I think u are drawing to only a gutshot to win...if u add one out to your gutshot, then u only need 8.2-ish from the pot to call. Whichever u prefer. So its close, but Im only counting the gutshot.

daveymck · #4 05-21-2005, 06:40 AM

Against a EP TA-A with no callers I'm tempted to dump this preflop, a good player will have you dominated a lot of the time and I dont fancy HU hoping for a flush.

Once he three bets you on the flop and the ace comes on the turn I think you can either check call or check fold, leading out I dont see what you were hoping to achieve.

Nick C · #5 05-21-2005, 07:28 AM

I don't like the turn bet. What can UTG+1 have at this point? I don't think he's scared of the ace. Or in any event (I mean, you could have QT), I don't think he's scared enough of it to fold.

I would check the turn and I guess maybe call, with my nine murky outs (I don't think you really have that many or even close to it). And then I would check-fold the river.

I'm okay with the flop checkraise, but I think you got carried away after that.

adamstewart · #6 05-21-2005, 02:14 PM

PREFLOP: Even though you have an UTG poster, you should probably muck this preflop. KQs is a very good hand, but against a TA-A, you're going to be dominated a large amount of the time, plus suffer the reverse implied odds of actually pairing your hand (as you did here).

I too used to cold-call all the time with KQs, mainly as per SSH. However, I soon learned that in order to do so, you need to have multiple players already committed to the pot.

Also note that cold-calling against an EP raiser is even worse, as his range of raising hands is narrow. Cold-calling an EP TA-A is even wose.

HERE IS A VERY RELEVANT THREAD ON THIS SUBJECT.

FLOP: checkraise is standard. However, you have to worry about being behind once you're 3-bet. Obviously call the raise, though, as there's still lots of room to improve your hand.

TURN: I don't like the lead bet AT ALL. Think about it: do you really think you're scaring this guy off a hand given all the action thus far? On this board, the only possible hand you're beating right now is QQ, and even that isn't very likely given villain's flop action.

So let's say you check, and he bets the turn... you're getting 8:1 on your call. You have 4 pretty clean outs for the 10's (I doubt very much that Hero has a Queen as well). But your K and Q outs are heavily tainted. Perhaps allow 2 outs for those.

That would give you 6 effective outs, so calling the 8:1 is marginally +EV.

In conclusion, check/call the turn.

RIVER: as per the "turn" discussion above, you surely don't have the best hand on the turn, so check/fold the river, unimproved.

Adam

oreogod · #7 05-21-2005, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I'm okay with the flop checkraise, but I think you got carried away after that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I think the CR on the flop is standard, it pretty much forces the TAG to define his hand (which TAG may or may not be aware of)...the TAG is basically telling him, I can beat your King. Thats what I see.

So Heros lead bet into the turn is what seems weird, maybe he thought TAG was going for a free turn card. Which in either case, say the TAG could 3-bet AQs on the flop for a free card, one of the obvious cards he'd be drawing to is an A. So either way, why lead the turn?

Besides not being result oriented, when Im in a situation like this I dont see this as a free card play.

And a good amount of the time I will muck KQs in the SB against a TAA, especially an EP raising TAG. Being OOP with a TAG and the possibility of being dominated are not what I would call fun.

KDawgCometh · #8 05-21-2005, 05:47 PM

I'm probably folding this PF and deifnetly folding the turn. Your flop play was perfect

adamstewart · #9 05-21-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm ... and deifnetly folding the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

leaving money at the table.

Adam

KDawgCometh · #10 05-21-2005, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm ... and deifnetly folding the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

leaving money at the table.

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

but not matter which way we improve, our hand could very well be second best many times