Who likes to raise this turn?

damaniac · #1 05-21-2005, 02:24 AM

MP3 is an amazing donk. Just iso 3-bet him in EP with KTs and went to showdown with K high (and won against his 64o or something), and I've seen other over-aggressive donkish behavior.

Button is new, maybe an orbit, appears TAGish/TAPish perhaps.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP3 bets, Hero...

Anyone like a raise here?

brazilio · #2 05-21-2005, 02:35 AM

I like a fold. If you REALLY think you can get him off JJ-KK, and THEN you think you're good over a T or A, then maybe.

That pot's going to be really expensive against two donks, and 'd expect a competent button to cap a lot of hands against that, and a ton with an A.

Nick C · #3 05-21-2005, 02:37 AM

It would be nice to drive out Button's KK/QQ/JJ, if that's what he has, but I think I prefer a fold. I don't think AA and AKs (or maybe AKo) are all that unlikely for Button.

I've made this kind of postflop isolation raise against maniacs before, but I prefer to do it when no one has shown as much strength as Button has. (Also, if MP3 just caught a ten, well, that sucks.)

Plus, if Button was paying attention to the pot you took with king-high, he might get stubborn even if he doesn't have an ace.

damaniac · #4 05-21-2005, 02:41 AM

Yeah, I suppose the combination of 1) button not folding his JJ-KK (or having AK/AQ), 2) MP having a T/A, 3) MP catching something on the river, and 4) having just shown a willingness to play back against the table maniac should make this a fold. Which is what I did.

Button called, called the river and won with JJ, against MP's Rules of Stud Poker and How to Order Replacement Cards. Or something like that.

I just wondered if this would work often enough given the pot size (which is ample) to be profitable. Maybe with a better read on the button?

Nick C · #5 05-21-2005, 02:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I suppose the combination of 1) button not folding his JJ-KK (or having AK/AQ), 2) MP having a T/A, 3) MP catching something on the river, and 4) having just shown a willingness to play back against the table maniac should make this a fold. Which is what I did.

Button called, called the river and won with JJ, against MP's Rules of Stud Poker and How to Order Replacement Cards. Or something like that.

I just wondered if this would work often enough given the pot size (which is ample) to be profitable. Maybe with a better read on the button?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a tough question. I think I'd want to know that Button wouldn't cap preflop with AKo (or at least might not) and that there was a good chance he'd fold KK/QQ/JJ.

Actually, I think that ordinarily there is a good chance he'll fold those hands. But he might be less inclined to than usual, under the circumstances. And also, he might be more inclined to cap light preflop (with AQo, for instance), if he's been watching what's been going on.

Just how random the maniac's hand is likely to be is also a consideration.

Bob Moss · #6 05-21-2005, 03:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I just wondered if this would work often enough given the pot size (which is ample) to be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is what poker is about, isn't it? This would be an expert play, straight from my favorite poker article ever. However, in this situation, against an unknown and out of position, I don't think it's worth trying.

Bob

SmileyEH · #7 05-21-2005, 02:56 PM

I probably wouldn't think of it at the time, but yeah - I can see a raise here. If anything, when you get to showdown your table image will be changed dramatically [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

-SmileyEH

adamstewart · #8 05-21-2005, 03:01 PM

What about:

Lead the flop.... see how button reacts.

If he calls or raises, it probably wouldn't be wise to put any more bets into this pot.

(Actually, if it's raised anywhere you should fold.)

If Button folds, great, now you can go to work on the donk.

Adam

Haupt_234 · #9 05-21-2005, 03:12 PM

I don't like a raise here at all. The button cold-capped and he is TAG preflop. On top of that, you are viewed as an LAG type of player because of your call down with K high.

You are beat by basically every hand that a TAG would cap with in this situation (AA-TT, AK, AQ) and he isn't laying his hand down to a turn raise in this big of a pot (unless he is donkier than MP3).

Haupt_234