TD 2-7: those pesky 87's

[MarkGritter]

How do you avoid calling down with an 87 that needs to be broken? I think my line is pretty standard here, but I'm wondering if Villian really has any other options. What would he need to know about me to break his hand?

Or, should I just smooth call here? I thought it was most likely he had an 87 or worse, although I would break if capped.

Player B is an OK player; he's generally drawing pretty smooth, seems to play straightforwardly. Player C is 2+2er who I'd like to push out of the hand. Hence the first-round 3-bet on this "sometimes" hand; I figured I could get it HU with position.

Epsom ($1/$2 Triple Draw 2-7)
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Player A is at seat 0.
Player B is at seat 1.
Hero is at seat 2.
Player C is at seat 4.
Player D is at seat 5.
The button is at seat 4.

Player D posts the small blind of $.50.
Player A posts the big blind of $1.

Hero: 6h 2c Ac 5c Tc

First Round:

Player B raises to $2. Hero re-raises to $3. Player C folds. Player D folds. Player A folds. Player B calls.

Player B takes 2 cards. Hero takes 2 cards.

Hero: 6h 2c 5c 2s 8c

Second Round:

Player B checks. Hero bets $1. Player B calls.

Player B takes 2 cards. Hero takes 1 card.

Hero: 6h 5c 2s 8c 4h

Third Round:

Player B checks. Hero bets $2. Player B raises to $4. Hero re-raises to $6. Player B calls.

Player B stands pat. Hero stands pat.

Hero: 6h 5c 2s 8c 4h

Final Round:

Player B checks. Hero bets $2. Player B calls.


Showdown:

Hero shows 8c 6h 5c 4h 2s.
Hero has 8 6 5 4 2.
Player B mucks cards.
(Player B has 8s 7h 5s 4c 2h.)

[2005]

I think villain pretty much has to break his 87 or fold when you 3-bet. I'd break myself.

Gavin

[randomstumbl]

All he needs to know are your raising standards. I'm pretty sure most solid players aren't going to 3 bet without beating 87. So, I'm probably going to break here a fair amount of the time as player B.

I'm not sure what I'd do if it gets capped. I think that's a very player specific decision. If you really are behind, you only have 3 outs or are drawing dead to a wheel. If you're not behind , you have 7 (assuming he needs at least one 7 or 8 to make this move). If there's much of a chance that they're raising with a worse hand, you can't break. On the other hand, with most opponents, there won't be much of a chance they're capping with a worse hand than 865.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
I think villain pretty much has to break his 87 or fold when you 3-bet. I'd break myself.

Gavin

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is getting 10:1 on calling the 3-bet, so if any 7 is good he has odds to break and call. There ARE people who will 3-bet worse hands here to get you to break, and you really need to know who they are. (I don't know if that is common in the 1/2 game, but I see it in the 3/6 - 5/10 games some.)

Looking at the hand, I'm not sure if I break or not. The fact that villain drew 2 and hero 1 on the second draw, and hero is in position makes it more likely that hero could be three betting with a weak hand. I mean if hero has something like 2347T, and is up against someone he knows can break an 87 or worse here, the three bet is probably correct. If villain calls and stands pat, he can draw to a hand, otherwise he stays pat and is a favorite to win the hand.

So, to close this ramble out, if hero is not capable of three betting here without the goods villain should call and break. If hero is just a complete rock and would only 3 bet with a 7 villain should fold. If Hero is a tough tricky player, villain should probably call, stand pat and check call the river if hero stands pat, bet call if hero draws.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

at the 1/2 level 87 should break here assuming a 7 will be good.

at higher limits, it is VERY common for a worse hand to 3-bet here hoping to get the guy to break an 8 while he stands pat with as much as J high (since a pat J is a favorite against any draw)

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
If Hero is a tough tricky player, villain should probably call, stand pat and check call the river if hero stands pat, bet call if hero draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd call a raise if the hero draws? In a higher limit game I'm probably staying pat and check calling even if he draws. In a game this limit, I'd break. If you lead out on the river after he draws, I think you have to fold if raised unless he's EXTREMELY tricky/maniacal. Of course, I've played with a guy who 4-bet a 9 on the river against me(same 200/400 game as before).

[randomstumbl]

This is something I've been thinking about. It basically comes down to how curious the opponent is. He broke because he didn't think he had the best hand. So, the only time you make anything by betting out is when he doesn't improve AND he feels like looking you up.

You probably aren't going to win too often calling raises, but you are kind of protected from them too. Your opponent has already made it clear that they think you have a strong hand. So, you don't lose as much as it seems when you have a strong hand that gets outdrawn since their raising standards will really tighten up in this situation usually.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Hero is a tough tricky player, villain should probably call, stand pat and check call the river if hero stands pat, bet call if hero draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd call a raise if the hero draws? In a higher limit game I'm probably staying pat and check calling even if he draws. In a game this limit, I'd break. If you lead out on the river after he draws, I think you have to fold if raised unless he's EXTREMELY tricky/maniacal. Of course, I've played with a guy who 4-bet a 9 on the river against me(same 200/400 game as before).

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a pretty fair amount of bluff raises in the mid level games at UB (say 4/8-10/20) that I have seen. If hero breaks (this role reversal is killing me) then he is ahead if he catches say one of three ranks (maybe even one of 4 if he is really smooth) but he will likely make a crying call with a worse 9, T, J or maybe even worse if he thinks you are snowing (though if he thinks you may be snowing he is probably making a mistake by breaking, I need to do the math on that one). But, he is probably not going to raise anything worse than a 7 or maybe a smooth 8, unless he bluffs. After you call a three bet and stand pat, he will want to show down most 8's, maybe even 85's since he will really really hate getting three bet there. Now, if you are folding even, geez I don't remember how big the pot is right now but lets say 20% of the time to a bluff raise, it is a profitable play for him. Again, it depends on hero, but someone like WestTexasMan (Shawn Rice) will bluff raise here. In fact, in the very limitted time I have played with him in 2-7, I have never seen him in a hand that had a free showdown.

That was long and rambling. To sum up, there is a lot of river bluffing in the mid limits until the opposition knows each other, and even then you have to occasionally make some dubious calls to stop people from taking shots at you. So, against a villain I am calling and standing pat with a 9 against, I am also most likely bet/calling. (If I know villain will auto bet if I check, I will check call. Also, I really need to do some math here I think.)