QJ in bb: how many mistakes?

Wynton · #1 05-12-2005, 08:09 AM

Very first hand at the table. Don't know my opponents at all. I think I may have made several mistakes here.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Anyone raise here?

Flop: (3 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP folds, SB calls.

I raised here because of the draws. Was this a mistake?

Turn: (3.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Not even sure why I did this now that there were two possible flush draws. I think I was surprised villain was still leading. It suddenly occurred to me that he might lead at river also if I just called here. Was this a silly play?

River: (5.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

dhaimon · #2 05-12-2005, 08:19 AM

Those stopngos really throw me off too, but when a complete brick lands (like here) I usually raise and possibly fold to a 3-bet.

blackize · #3 05-12-2005, 08:25 AM

If you raise here the pot becomes 10BB and if it is 3 bet then the pot is now 11. I feel that QJ is much better than 11 to 1 or even 8 to 1 to win. I see no reason not to raise the river and at least call the third bet.

ckessel · #4 05-12-2005, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise here the pot becomes 10BB and if it is 3 bet then the pot is now 11. I feel that QJ is much better than 11 to 1 or even 8 to 1 to win. I see no reason not to raise the river and at least call the third bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Just because you're better than 10:1 to win doesn't meanyou should raise. To raise you need to be better than 1:1, since one person is calling you.

Not saying a raise isn't a good idea in this position as I think the Hero has a better than 50/50 shot of winning the pot. Just pointing out that the original raise logic seems flawed.

blackize · #5 05-12-2005, 12:49 PM

Ah, I didnt mean that as justification for raising. You raise to try to find out where you are. My point about those odds was that if you raise and get 3 bet you have proper odds to call it down.

StellarWind · #6 05-12-2005, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You raise to try to find out where you are.

[/ QUOTE ]
An unfortunate expression.

The only purpose of raising is value. As you point out, if you get 3-bet you probably want to call him down anyway. If you are never willing to fold you cannot possibly make use of any information obtained from the raise.

You always find out where you are at showdown.

stigmata · #7 05-12-2005, 08:22 AM

Raise the turn. Sometimes when you get donkbetted like that, it means your opponent is on or has just picked up a draw. Charge him for it.

Wynton · #8 05-12-2005, 08:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn. Sometimes when you get donkbetted like that, it means your opponent is on or has just picked up a draw. Charge him for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't quite know how to interpret that donkbet. I thought it was possible guy had just picked up a draw. But because he led flop, I figured he had to have at least a piece of the flop also. Alternatively, I thought maybe he felt I had raised flop on a draw or bluff.

Though the real reason I just called was probably because my brain momentarily froze, at least part of me also thought that calling would induce a river bet, as it apparently did. Is there any reasonable justification for calling the turn?

RunDownHouse · #9 05-12-2005, 08:42 AM

If he's just donkbetting with absolutely nothing, like A-high or worse type stuff, he might fold to a turn raise, so you get another bet out of him.

stigmata · #10 05-12-2005, 08:53 AM

If he is a bluffer then let him bluff. I find the "average" players donkbet is either a crappy piece of the flop (middle pair etc) or a draw, so I tend to raise these players.