JJ

therockofgibraltar · #1 05-09-2005, 12:27 PM

0,5/1 Pacific

I just sat in. MP3, posted BB.

fold-call-fold-fold-raise-I reraise with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] - CO folds - button fold - SB folds - BB caps - original raiser calls and so do I.

Flop (3 players)
J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB bets - call - I raise - BB three bets - caller caps - I call - BB calls.

Turn (3 players)
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB bets - raise - I call - BB three bets - cap - I and BB calls.

Should I had made that three bet?

River
9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB check - bet - I call - BB calls

How about a raise here?

atnels · #2 05-09-2005, 12:40 PM

Wow. I think I'd probably 3-bet the turn, but I don't think it's changing the way the hand played too much. Unless you have reads that these guys are all over-agressive donks, there's a decent chance you're drawing to a 1-outer on the turn. On the flop, it's easily possible that you're ahead... if there's an AA out, plus someone going nuts with the nut flush draw, OESD, or 2-pair. But, when the A comes on the turn and the BB 3-bets behind you and UTG+1 caps, I start to get the hint that I could be toast.

Regardless, you can't fold on the river for one bet since by this time the pot will be the size of Christmas. That being said, I think I'd fold if BB raised and UTG+1 reraised. I'd put BB on either AA or KK, and UTG+1 the A-high straight.

Nice hand anyhow.

therockofgibraltar · #3 05-09-2005, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. I think I'd probably 3-bet the turn, but I don't think it's changing the way the hand played too much. Unless you have reads that these guys are all over-agressive donks, there's a decent chance you're drawing to a 1-outer on the turn. On the flop, it's easily possible that you're ahead... if there's an AA out, plus someone going nuts with the nut flush draw, OESD, or 2-pair. But, when the A comes on the turn and the BB 3-bets behind you and UTG+1 caps, I start to get the hint that I could be toast.

Regardless, you can't fold on the river for one bet since by this time the pot will be the size of Christmas. That being said, I think I'd fold if BB raised and UTG+1 reraised. I'd put BB on either AA or KK, and UTG+1 the A-high straight.

Nice hand anyhow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too would have folded on river to a raise/reraise. By thw way, BB didn't show but the other had AK

Grail · #4 05-09-2005, 02:03 PM

Puting any of these guys on AA or KK is just short of crazy. Sure if could happen but MUCH more likely is the straight, or flush draw. Could even be AK or some other 2p hands.

Without reads it's hard to tell but I'd bet at least 1 of the villians is on tilt, or just a complete maniac here. I small a rat.

Before the river you have 10 outs to the boat so even if you are behind which is still a maybe you must continue. On the river for 1 bet, or even 2 you need to call this down. Bet if you think they are nuts or tilting at eachother.

-G

MrWookie47 · #5 05-09-2005, 02:20 PM

Assuming a typical range of capping hands for BB, on the turn, you're ahead of:
AK: 9 ways
QQ: 6 ways, but unlikely given the action

You lose to:
AA: 3 ways
KK: 3 ways

I'm less than thrilled that the original raiser is still here and still likes his hand. The call/cap on the flop is especially disturbing. That usually spells monster. I think on the turn I'd just call down, but I'd hate doing it given the raising war. I think you're ahead just barely often enough to call down, but I'd hate it. If either villain had AK, I think he overplayed it. The pot is huge, but you can't fold, even if AA and KK are likely.

atnels · #6 05-09-2005, 02:30 PM

Yeah, but if Hero is behind AA or KK (which I have to say I would honestly expect given this action), none of these outs will matter.

I'm never folding this on the river for one bet, but if there was ever a board and action to think a set of jacks might not be good, it would be this one.

Rosencrantz1 · #7 05-09-2005, 02:38 PM

This is such a great example of why reads are important. (It also brings up something else, mentioned below.)

You obviously can't lay this down when you get to the river; the pot is just too big. Jones says in WLLH that if you don't lose a big amount when your trips get cracked, you're not playing them right.

Given the preflop/flop action, I think the straight is unlikely, and if these guys are playing flush draws this aggressviely, it's a GREAT table, since the 80% of the time they miss on the river you're taking their money.

Obviously (and as stated by others) it's the aces or kings you're worried about. However, I don't think it's badly played at all. Just the pain of having trips miss.

The other thing your hand reminded me of is another post I read somewhere around here last week, namely that posting a blind when you sit down (as opposed to waiting for the BB to come around) is a MAJOR LEAK. Not only are you more often than not simply folding PF and therefore out one SB from the get-go, but (assuming you haven't been sitting on the rail) you've just prevented yourself from getting a few watching hands in to start getting reads on people. How much easier this hand would have been had you had the chance to see how these guys played an orbit or so before you started getting dealt in.

Just a thought.

Niediam · #8 05-09-2005, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The other thing your hand reminded me of is another post I read somewhere around here last week, namely that posting a blind when you sit down (as opposed to waiting for the BB to come around) is a MAJOR LEAK. Not only are you more often than not simply folding PF and therefore out one SB from the get-go, but (assuming you haven't been sitting on the rail) you've just prevented yourself from getting a few watching hands in to start getting reads on people. How much easier this hand would have been had you had the chance to see how these guys played an orbit or so before you started getting dealt in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd question if that is a leak. Calling it a major leak is a joke.

DMBFan23 · #9 05-09-2005, 03:03 PM

posting in Mp3 is fine at a 10-handed table. honestly, it doesn't matter much. your time has an opportunity cost to it, and posting from the CO has more EV than waiting for the blind. so, MP3 can't be that much worse straight away, and you get to play hands which is more +EV than sitting there on the rail.

atnels · #10 05-09-2005, 03:05 PM

I strongly disagree that posting outside of the BB is a major leak.

Yes, taking a few hands to observe the players at the table is a good idea - if waiting for the BB to post makes you watch a couple hands, then by all means wait. However, if you post in the CO, MP3, or MP2 you're paying .5 BB to see 7,6, or 5 hands. As long as you don't over-defend it, there's not too much difference between paying .75 BB for 10 hands and .5 BB for 7 hands. You actually pay less per hand by posting in the CO (at the cost of position).

I guarantee everyone in this forum has way larger 'leaks' to worry about than this. Posting UTG is kind of dumb, but other than that, I specifically remember a section of SSHE where Ed says it doesn't make much difference where you post, in terms of +/- EV.