What did I get myself into.... PP 5/10NL

IHateCats · #1 05-02-2005, 02:26 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (10 handed) converter

BB ($2475.75)
Hero ($1665.55)
UTG+1 ($1027)
UTG+2 ($1239.25)
MP1 ($489)
MP2 ($1042)
MP3 ($3144)
CO ($465.25)
Button ($433.05)
SB ($2340.12)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls $10, 2 folds, MP1 raises to $50, 5 folds, BB calls $40, Hero raises to $200, MP1 raises to $489 (All-In), BB calls $439.

Hero?

I was fairly certain that MP1 was pushing AK, AQ or JJ too hard, that had been a trend with that player who tends to trap with AA in unopened pots, especially when his stack size had gotten around the $500 level. BB is a bit of an unknown, hasn't gotten out of line but didn't seem very tricky either. So push or bail?

radioheadfan · #2 05-02-2005, 02:33 PM

Take a flop with the BB. You have position on him. The money's too deep here to feel good about getting all in with queens.

Take a flop, see what he does, play some poker.

(I'm inclined to get all in on a flop with 3 low cards).

shmahappens · #3 05-02-2005, 02:39 PM

If BB isn't very tricky then it isn't likely that he was flat calling a raise with AA or KK pf (as he called 40 back to him, and had no way to assume you'd raise more as you did), so he more likely has AK or JJ, right?
And since you put the other guy on AK or JJ, and you're getting good odds (1:5) combined with the likelihood that they are both missing outs (if they're both pushing AK) this doesn't seem like a fold.

I'd like to call and attack a non AK (or possibly J) flop to push out the BB (who it really doesn't seem likely could possibly have anything other than AK or AKs)...as a re-raise wouldn't make much sense as it's going into a sidepot. So I'd say call, and pray for a 10-high flop.

Jason Strasser · #4 05-02-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So push or bail?

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?? How about calling and taking a flop getting 3+:1.

aggie · #5 05-02-2005, 02:50 PM

Folding at this point is not an option....I say call, and proceed with extreme caution...

Please flame away, as i know these may be controversial. I'd love to hear what some of the best posters do here?

If the flop comes with unders, and BB checks, bet half your remaining stack and fold to a reraise.

If the flop comes with unders, and BB bets, move all in. If he's slowplaying AA, he'd probably check the flop.

If the flop comes with an over and BB bets, fold.

If the flop comes with an over and BB checks, bet half your remaining stack and fold to a reraise.

neon · #6 05-02-2005, 02:52 PM

You're getting about 4:1 on your call, so even if BB has AA or KK, you're getting damn near the proper odds to call and hit a set, and when you factor in implied odds, I think it's a clear call.

Because of the pot odds and stack sizes, I don't think that a fold is correct here, although I do believe that BB has a bigger pair than you most of the time, making a push abysmal, imo. BB cold-called your limp-reraise and MP1's push w/ you still left to act and more than a grand still left behind. Unless he's a total donk, BB has to know that your limp-reraise is either AA, KK or QQ, and his cold-call w/ you still able to reopen the action preflop tells me he's got a monster.

I think I'd call here, hoping to flop a set, and if I didn't, I'd proceed with some serious caution postflop.

aggie · #7 05-02-2005, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If BB isn't very tricky then it isn't likely that he was flat calling a raise with AA or KK pf (as he called 40 back to him, and had no way to assume you'd raise more as you did), so he more likely has AK or JJ, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not convinced...I'm still very worried about AA or KK here

[ QUOTE ]
and pray for a 10-high flop.

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I'd pray for a Q high flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

ML4L · #8 05-02-2005, 03:06 PM

Hey Cats,

Push. In my experience, BB has a worse hand FAR more often than AA/KK. The pot is huge already. If the flop comes all undercards, you aren't getting away anyway. And, you don't stand to collect money if BB misses (if he was a known maniac who could have any two here and would bluff at many flops, calling is more of an option). Your push gives him the chance to incorrectly fold AK. It also keeps him from cheaply hitting a set with JJ (or, alternatively, lets him call as a huge dog).

Frankly, I'm shocked that posters, some of them excellent players, would advocate a call.

Hope it worked out.

ML4L

ML4L · #9 05-02-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Cats,

Push. In my experience, BB has a worse hand FAR more often than AA/KK. The pot is huge already. If the flop comes all undercards, you aren't getting away anyway. And, you don't stand to collect money if BB misses (if he was a known maniac who could have any two here and would bluff at many flops, calling is more of an option). Your push gives him the chance to incorrectly fold AK. It also keeps him from cheaply hitting a set with JJ (or, alternatively, lets him call as a huge dog).

Frankly, I'm shocked that posters, some of them excellent players, would advocate a call.

Hope it worked out.

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to accentuate the key to my argument...

Number of times I've seen this kind of preflop action go down in the Stars 5/10 game: Many.

Number of times I've ever been shown AA/KK by the coldcaller: Zero.

Seeing as how Party has about ten times as many nutjobs as Stars, I maintain that you are ahead here a HUGE percentage of the time. I'm pretty sure that Bayes' Theorem agrees with me too...

ML4L

aggie · #10 05-02-2005, 03:21 PM

I like your thinking, and i was very torn on this one. If your very confident villian does not have AA or KK I have no doubt that your line is correct.

But what percentage of the time would BB need to have AA or KK to make this play incorrect? I'm thinking it's pretty low.

I for one, am very capable of holding AA in BB's position...There is a zero percent chance i would have AK or JJ.....Is that awful?