A2K Razz starting

[spindizzy]

What is your opinion of a hand like A2K to start in Razz. Both concealed and door K. I usually make the unorthodox play of defending against a late steal with the K showing if the call/reraise will make me come headsup, with the understanding that a late stealer (say everyone to the stealer on my right folds) will probably have less of a hand than me. Is this terrible?

Also I'd like to know if there is a list of Razz starting hands ranked by the average expected low, anywhere on the net.

Regards, Thomas

[dibbs]

I rarely, rarely make this play. Usually only live when I have a really strong idea that the stealer is dicking around. Even if you hit perfect and he hits bad on 4th, his board will probably look mildly better than yours, and I remember correctly A2K is a decent dog to a lot of really mediocre to crappy rough low draws.

I don't know about info on the net, but I think there was some odds stuff in Super System.

[spindizzy]

I own super system but there is not much odds on razz there and no ranking of starting hands. I heard Sklansky on poker should have a lot of razz, is it worth buying? Well, the A2K question is what interests me the most, because... How are the stats for say A2K vs 789? Any simulators out there? (Should be easy to write one I guess)

Regards.

[TheShootah]

I would advocate this play only against someone who pretty much steals everytime he is in position to do so, and your cards that are needed are live, and the cards that pair you are dead, and only sparingly. Here are some sims.....

A2K vs. 789 ----> 37/63%
A2K vs. 789 ----> 42/58% (1 A, 1 2 dead)
A2K vs. 789 ----> 44/56 (1 A, 1 2, 1 K dead)
A2K vs. 789 ----> 46/54 (1 A, 2 2 dead)
A2K vs. 57J ----> 44/55%
A2K vs. 57J ----> 50/50% (1 A, 1 2 dead)

so you can see that to play this, you need to be pretty sure you are against a steal, and you need to be live, with the cards that pair you dead. But this certainly is a playable hand depending on the player, and the cards out(sometimes). Against solid players raises, of course, this should be mucked pretty freakin quick! Hope this helps! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

EDIT: Definitely buy Slansky on Poker for the Razz section. This actual topic is covered. Also, these sims are done by twodimes.net. Also, I think your upcard makes a difference here. A2J may actually be beating some of the hands you are up against, while A2K is always a dog.

[dibbs]

A2K vs. 789 ----> 37/63%
A2K vs. 789 ----> 42/58% (1 A, 1 2 dead)

About what I thought was correct, interesting stuff.

I think the most value A2K has is in tournaments where it's folded to you and the 2 or A is your doorcard. Even though everyone knows you are stealing, people rarely put up a fight. I reraise with (K)(2) A or (K) (A) 2 too if it really looks like LP is on a straight up steal, but this is only in tourneys really. I'm not really interested in the fact that I have an A2 though, I'm basically applying pressure with a scary doorcard against an obivous steal. Then again, People usually only try and steal when you have a big doorcard anyways.

[schubes]

The doorcard is extremely significant in Razz. If you have an A or 2 as a doorcard and there is only one low card left to act, nearly always steal with A2K. Steal sometimes with more than one low card left, depending on live cards, the rank of the low cards left, table image, etc.

To even consider defending with a K doorcard you need to have lots of antes to fight for. Even if A2K is a percentage favorite against many of the cards the stealer could have, you are always a dog since you will have to fold if you catch bad on either 4th or 5th. Your opponent will outplay you -they know when they have a lock, know when you make a good low draw, and know when you have to fold.

Even if the antes are big, the low cards you need must be very live, and you need to be against a complete steal. These conditions are slightly conflicting since if low cards are live it is more likely the stealer has a decent hand.

[TheShootah]

Another good pt. to bring up is that in tournies I don't think i would defend against this hand too often in the early rounds. One, because the small antes aren't really worth fighting for, and two, I like to play really tight in Razz tournaments until the higher levels, so I don't really like to be on the defensive. Kind of off topic, but close.

[spindizzy]

Thanks for the reply! How do you use the twodimes simulator? It gives me errors.

[TheShootah]

I dunno. I just kinda use it. First switch the game to Razz. And then type in the hands in the box like so:

As 2c Ks
7h 8s 9d

And then dead cards can be put in the box the same way. I suspect you forgot the suits because I didn't put them in my results.