AQo and my head is spinning.

Entity · #1 04-21-2005, 08:31 PM

Button in this hand has shown laggish tendencies in the past. I've been fairly reasonable at the table, mostly showing down winners or folding fairly early.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (15 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

DMBFan23 · #2 04-21-2005, 08:47 PM

pretty much all you can do with all those people in there. HU you can think about tricky lines, capping PF, and some such things

clownshoes · #3 04-21-2005, 08:54 PM

Raise turn? Seems like you picked up a lot of outs and want to put some pressure on all the other people still in the hand.

mr pink · #4 04-21-2005, 09:09 PM

pf - standard

flop - betting into 4 opponents with A high on that flop wouldn't be good, so yeah.

turn - i think this *might* be a good spot to check/raise... the LAG checking the flop through is rare, he's either got a huge piece of it or he has absolutely nothing. even as most LAGs would bet AK in that spot after everyone's checked to them, AQ has a good chance at being best. i could see him 3-betting a strong drawing hand pf, like QJs to bloat the pot since you raised from the sb. given that, i think your hand has a pretty good shot at being best... especially if you can get it HU with the button. even if he's got you beat on the turn (which may or not be the case) you've got 9 clean outs to the nuts and some possible Ace and Queen outs if he's donking around.

i don't know if i have the balls to make this move, but it looks pretty good from here. being a pussy in spots like this is probably the area of my game that needs the most work.

thoughts?

thirddan · #5 04-21-2005, 09:37 PM

i really want to c/r the turn (not sure if its right) and push everyone out...your hand might be good and you might get a hand like 55 or AK to fold which is awesome, plus you still have a draw...

and happy birthday...

and to answer the next question...if only button called i would lead the river and cross my fingers...

littlejohn · #6 04-22-2005, 12:26 AM

The only thing I 'might' have done differently here is bet the flop and see what develops behind you. If you get raised by BTN that is unfortunate but if there are other callers you can probably peel one off. But I can support your line here as well as there are many references in both SSHE and HFAP that discuss whiffing a semi coordinated board like this. You actually got a good result, a free turn card which provided you with a great draw.

For what it's worth, I don't respect BTN's limp 3 bet here based on his position. I put him on lower suited connectors or a low pocket pair but not much more based on your description of him and his position, not many players limp 3 bet from the button.

Justin A · #7 04-22-2005, 12:37 AM

I think this is absolutely a turn raise. You're in a perfect spot to win this hand with ace high, and you've got outs to the nuts just in case. Pot is definitely big enough. Button doesn't have a good hand, he was donking around preflop and missed the flop. Unlikely the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] helped him, as he's likely betting any straight or flush draw on the flop.

Shillx · #8 04-22-2005, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is absolutely a turn raise. You're in a perfect spot to win this hand with ace high, and you've got outs to the nuts just in case. Pot is definitely big enough. Button doesn't have a good hand, he was donking around preflop and missed the flop. Unlikely the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] helped him, as he's likely betting any straight or flush draw on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. The only time I would not check/raise the turn is if the button is the type of player who will only check behind on the flop with something like the top set.

Nick C · #9 04-22-2005, 12:43 AM

I probably would have played the hand the same way, thinking there are too many people in for me to try to get tricky on the turn.

But, boy, this is complicated, now that I think about it. You possibly are against enough hands that will cold-call and don't step on your flush and potential overcard outs for a turn checkraise to be for value. Also, there is some possibility that your checkraise will get you heads-up with the LAG, which certainly could be beneficial and give you the chance to win with ace-high. Also, it could buy you some outs, even if you're currently behind Button.

Unfortunately, I think what will usually happen is that you'll be charging yourself extra to draw, when you'd rather see the river card as cheaply as you can. Still, there will be occasions when you'll gain a lot from a checkraise, so the play might be beneficial enough, often enough, to be a good one, even if a turn checkraise is a bad investment more often than not.

Entity · #10 04-22-2005, 01:06 AM

I think Justin and Shill are right.

PFR LRR had 77 on this one for the turned set, but I think it's worth investing two bets on the turn. Given the board I wasn't completely sure about it, since most hands a LAG would overlimp-reraise are going to be ahead of mine.

Rob