Is Cold-Calling Too Many Raises Preflop Really A Terrible Mistake?

[PokerProdigy]

I have read alot of the material that Sklansky and Malmuth have written on hold'em and they both stress the point that cold-calling raises preflop with too many hands is a killer to your bankroll. Now I am NOT trying to question Sklansky and Malmuth's strategy or ability, because they seem like great poker players, as well as, great poker writers. Most of their strategy appears to be genius.

But lately I have been wondering if their ideas about not cold-calling raises is really such a big deal. Now don't get me wrong because I am NOT talking about cold-calling with hands like 5-6 suited or jack-seven (which I don't play anyway). But I notice that some of the other successful players/authors tell you to cold-call with hands like ten-jack suited, low pocket pairs, king-queen, etc... Specifically, I am talking about the advice given by Mike Caro (in Caro's Professional Hold'em Report) and Bob Ciaffone & Jim Brier (in their book Middle-Limit Poker).

Now honestly, I have NOT read either one of these books. But I have read Gambling Theory and Other Topics by Mason Malmuth and in Appendix A he gives his opinion on various poker books. He rates both of these books very low because of the frequency to cold-call raises preflop with these types of hands.

Now I have always stuck strictly to the Sklansky and Malmuth advice of NOT cold-calling preflop with these hands (except for the specific situations that they discuss where you've already seen three or more people cold-call and you have a hand like queen-jack suited). But lately I have been wondering if it is really a terrible play? Because if it is such a terrible play why would people like Caro and Ciaffone do it? They are good players who've been winning for a long time. And they are also educated on poker theory, so they've had to think about this before. Yet, they still have NOT concluded that it is a mistake. And even if you are giving up some in EV, maybe you'll make up for it (plus some) because people won't think of you as a "total rock."

Please, feel free to reply with any questions or comments on this topic. Basically, it is just something I have been thinking about lately and I am a little confused on the topic, so I figured I'd post it on the forum and see what everyone else thought. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

And at the very least it should spawn some interesting discussion, maybe even Malmuth or Sklansky will reply???

[pfkaok]

Normally, when they're saying that its a horrible mistake to coldcall it refers to when you are the first one calling the raise. in a lowlimit games if there's a raise and several callers in front of you, then calling with any of the hands you talked about is fine (small and mid pairs, Axs, QJs and such). Also, in tougher, higher limit games there can be a benefit to coldcalling with some hands, but it requires very good postflop play, and even then its still debatable. this midlimit "floater" thread is about just that and might have some of the stuf you're looking for.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1

[Killer Man's Son]

Good post. Lot's of good material should come from this.

I think what you are doing is taking advice out of context. Cold Calling is generally a weak play unless you have a very strong drawing hand and you know you will have lots of callers. The best site I can think of which illustrates this is Pacific. A raise deters no one and you will be paid off well when hitting a strong drawing hand. If you do this at a site like UB however, you will get hurt.

Also, I really think you need to read Ciaffone's book before making comments about it. I consider it one of my favorites (Middle Limit Holdem). His advice is dead on in a lot of cases and my game has improved dramatically using his advice. I have no idea why Mason raked his book low as I like Mason's book [Gambling Theory...] a lot as well. I know some of the posters here consider Ciaffone passive but I just don't see it. The guy played pro for 20+ years in Vegas if I recall correctly so he must know what he is doing. He may not be as agressive as others but where he applies it is key. Good stuff.

Looking forward to some other repsonses on this.

[lehighguy]

Ah Pacific [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also, realize there is the everyone calls effect. If someone raises and someone in front of you calls, it encourages people behind to call as well.

[Richie Rich]

[ QUOTE ]
I am NOT talking about cold-calling with hands like 5-6 suited

[/ QUOTE ]
Ironically, 56s has a better chance of breaking AA/KK/QQ than any other hand. Sklansky started a thread about this a little while back. Check out the archives if you're interested to learn why.


[ QUOTE ]
I notice that some of the other successful players/authors tell you to cold-call with hands like ten-jack suited, low pocket pairs, king-queen, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]
I would much rather cold-call a raise with J10s (SC) or low to medium pocket pairs (PP) than King-Queen for the simple reason that: (a) it's easy to let go of SC/PPs if you miss on the flop, and (b) KQ is a dominated hand against the most commonly raised hands like AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ.


[ QUOTE ]
if it is such a terrible play why would people like Caro and Ciaffone do it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Excluding AA/KK/QQ, the more profitable hands in limit poker and PL/NL poker are not created equal. While I don't play limit very often, it's my understanding that high cards like AJ or QJs are more valuable in limit than they are in PL/NL. And in PL/NL, SCs and PPs are considered more valuable since you're getting better implied odds if you call a pf raise and are able to hit. Since most people relate Sklansky to limit poker, and Ciaffone to PL/NL, it's not surprising to see some key differences in how they play and value certain hands in the game.

[PokerProdigy]

But the Ciaffone book I am refering to is directly written for LIMIT hold'em. In fact, it's related to middle-limit hold'em (NOT low-limit hold'em where it would seem more intuitive to cold-call more raises). [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[allintuit]

I agree about the Pacific Poker statement.

[adamstewart]

Points Relative to this Discussion:

* cold-calling reduces your implied odds that come with post-flop play

* reverse implied odds that comes along with dominated hands



Adam