5 card, 2 buys

This game has recently made its way into our home game.
5 card stud (1 down, 4 up) with 2 replacement buy cards at the end (if desired), followed by a hi/lo declare + betting round.
Anyone ever play this crazy game?? Any advice?
Seems like low scoop starters are the only way to go.
thanks

[Packerfan1]

Ah, 5-1-1... thats what we call it. You're right, like most hi-low games always go for the low with scoop potential if there is no qualifier. Here are a few variations that our group uses:

Dealer Advantage: Only one buy.

Kansas City: 5 cards, 2 down - 3up, three buys.

Sixty-two: 6 cards, 2 down - 4 up, two buys.

Sixty-three: Like sixty-two.. but 3 buys.

Goofy, I know. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Michael

[Phat Mack]

This game has been around for ages. Scoops are much rarer than in seven card. The two buys on the end promote action, but make for tough decsions: If you have a good hand (2h3h4h5hKh) and want to scoop, you'll have to break your hand to draw. But if your K is hidden, you might fool your opponents into thinking you are going low, beat them for high and scoop that way. I've played where draws on the end cost increasing amounts of money, $5, $10. I've played where to draw you have to match the pot. If drawing is expensive in your game, leave it to the fish unless you have a monster.

This is a profitable game that can promote a lot of action. It has a lot of variations: three draws on the end; and 6cs, draw two or none.

I think some old poker books have good discussions of this game. I can't remember their titles, but one is by Irv Roddy and I think either Livingston or Morehead has a pretty good analysis of it. If you like this game it may be worthwhile to check out a 2nd hand book store.

Mack

[Buzz]

"This game has recently made its way into our home game.
5 card stud (1 down, 4 up) with 2 replacement buy cards at the end (if desired), followed by a hi/lo declare + betting round.
Anyone ever play this crazy game?? Any advice?
Seems like low scoop starters are the only way to go.
thanks "

Pigeon - You don't get nut hands much in five card stud. Assuming the cost of the exchanges is not too expensive, most players will usually be buying an exchange, especially in early position.

And that fact makes this game a huge positional advantage game because those in late position (especially the dealer) get to see what the players in front of them do before they act. If, for example, you hold T-6-5-3-A on the second replacement card round, and if the player in front of you evidently draws for low and catches a pair, and if nobody else seems to be going for low, you probably will not take a replacement card. On the other hand, if you are the one in early or even mid position on the second replacement card round, and if your up-cards are T-6-5-3, and if you exchange your ten and get a queen, a player behind you with J-7-6-5 showing might decide not to take a replacement card. (The player behind you with J-7-6-5 showing was probably planning to exchange if you didn't catch a pair or a high card).

Position. Position. Position. Continually be aware of the extreme importance of position in this game. (Don't wait until the exchange rounds to realize you'd much rather be last to act). Generally play very tight in early position. You can play considerably looser in late position. For example, under the gun (in first position) you probably want to see either an ace and a wheel card or a high pair (aces, kings, or queens). If the high pair is kings, you shouldn't like them much if you see that an opponent has an ace. If the high pair is queens, you shouldn't like them much if you see that an opponent has either an ace or a king. Under the gun in a loose game you might also consider playing a suited ace with an honor, but that's about as poor a starting hand as you should generally play from under the gun.

On the other hand in late position, what you play depends very much on what the players ahead of you seem to be doing. You can (and should be, IMHO) very opportunistic in late position.

Of course, from any position, even early position, what you see in front of your opponents affects the value of your hand. If you see all twos, threes, fours, fives, sixes and sevens, then a pair of eights or nines might look like a very good starting hand.

You mentioned low scoop starters. It may not be immediately obvious when you have low scoop starters in early position (1) that you will probably need to exchange a card, and (2) what someone does who follows you will depend on the result of that exchange. But that's the plain truth of it. As a result, low scoop starters have a way of ending up much nicer for you in late position than in early position.

This is a game to enjoy when you are dealing or sitting directly to the right of the dealer, but a much tougher game when you are first or second to act.

(Of course the cost of the exchange can be so high as to be prohibitive, in which case the game becomes five stud high/low and position does not matter nearly as much as when most players are usually buying an exchange. The higher the cost of the exchange, the less important position, but even in a dollar limit game when the cost of the exchange is five dollars, position rules).

Just my opinion.

Buzz