KK too tight on flop?

[Roybert]

I know I probably should've raised on the flop, but I really thought UTG was playing this like he had Aces. Should I have raised (even if I KNEW he had aces) to chase away flush and straight draws?

Paradise Poker 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds.

[Fishlips_Jones]

With that many players, no one is folding to a raise. Wait for the turn to raise if a non threatening card hits (no club, no ace, no card that completes the 89 straight draw )

Fishlips

[turaho]

UTG was also playing this like he had KK, QQ, AKs, or depending on your read of him, any of a million other hands that you completely destroy right now. Raise and cap the flop if 3-bet. Stop seeing monsters under the bed.

[FishHooks]

dissagree completely, raise the turn instead, no one is going to fold in a pot this big, so might as well raise the turn to get more value since you proboly have the most pot equity.

[Talex]

Think of how many other hands villain might have in this situation that play the same way, it's way too early to put him on AA. As for chasing away draws, you're not chasing any legit draw away for an extra SB. That said with a pot this big you aren't chasing anyone with a real draw away on the turn either. Get the money in and raise the flop while you've still got a couple of players trapped.

-Tim

[rlr]

I am still thinking I have the best hand. UTG raise preflop and bets the flop and if I think I got him beat on the flop I am sure I still do and w/o a read he should have AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ? (Maybe TT... Not sure what else people raise UTG at .05/.10 anymore? Could be anything,) Considering I beat/tie all but one of those hands I am raising.

Yes it's likely nobody folds and there is the club draw to consider on the turn, but I'm raising/capping this flop everytime.

[dvashun]

With 18 BB in before the flop, no one is going anywhere if they have any draw at all. Even 2 outers are getting the right odds to call, well almost. So raise/cap for value and hope you don't get drawn out on.

[dkernler]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I probably should've raised on the flop, but I really thought UTG was playing this like he had Aces. Should I have raised (even if I KNEW he had aces) to chase away flush and straight draws?


[/ QUOTE ]
Two problems this your comments here:
1. Try not to put someone on one hand. I'd play the same way with AA-JJ, AKs. Without a read on UTG, we could add tons of other crazy hands in there. No need to assume the worst.

2. If you KNEW UTG had AA, you'd call because of the pot odds (drawing to two outs) and fold the turn UI.

That said, this pot is HUGE. I'm not sure, but I want to put my raise in on the flop when it's cheaper. No flush or straight draws should fold here or the turn anyway, and I'd rather see where I am when it's cheaper.

Also, someone with a weak pair will be more likely to call now than on the turn if they miss again.

Just my thoughts. I could certainly be way off, though. (It's happened once or twice. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

[droolie]

Were you waiting for the turn to raise?

Raising this flop is pretty important unless you have some reason why you think waiting for the turn is better against these particular opponents...

First of all flush and str8 draws aren't going anywhere so get that thought out of your mind. Secondly you want players with backdoor draws to call you. Third you're in terrible position to the raiser so protecting your hand is impossible. Lastly you have two players trapped in between. You must punish them and punish them now. This is a value raise. The trapped players might fold the turn and you lose all those value bets if you don't raise now (since they already called one bet this round they're highly likley to pay to see another card regardless of whether UTG reraises and you cap. Once they see the turn doesn't help them they'll likely fold when villian leads or posibbly allow you to trap them again if they improve slightly. This can turn into a HUGE pot with them having very little chance of catching you if you play this hand fast from the start. This is a very important concept to understand!!! On this board slowing down shouldn't cross your mind as long as these goofs are calling along.)



You may take a different line HU against a pf capper but the extra fluff the trapped players are adding to this pot right now is just too good to pass up to not raise. And besides the vast majority of UTG pf cappers will not be AA. You are currently way ahead of most of them in fact thus your equity edge is through the roof. Push it.

Have your radar up for AA but don't give them credit for it when they merely lead the flop. Many players lead this flop no matter what they had if they capped pf.

[Fishlips_Jones]

"goofs" may be the defining read.

So raise/cap the flop and see how the action changes on the turn? Maybe all those backdoor draws fold for 2 flop bets? Then... Call-down if a scare card (any club; any: ace,5, 6, 7, 8 ,9, T, J, Q) hits and a limper wakes up?


Fishlips