Beginner Tournament Hand: Did I do the right thing? Why?

[bluewilde]

Right then, so this is my first post. I'm a college freshman who's new to the game (started playing with my hall last September). I've played/read/re-read a lot since then, but I'm still very much a beginner (which is why I'm posting in this forum, redirect me if I belong somewhere else, Home Poker, perhaps).

Three weeks ago, some guys from another floor put together a building-wide tournament series. It's fairly informal: 20-25 people, $2 buy-in (blinds start .05, .10) with top 3 splitting the nightly pool and top 10 or so accumulating points for the overall pool. Generally the players are just as (typically more) inexperienced as me. There are a lot of reckless players and nothing ever seems worth posting (there are tighter players, but they're extremely passive and, again, not too interesting). Still, I try to focus and learn something (I really want to work on improving, not just playing). Maybe 4 or 5 of the other players are like this. Unfortunately, most players are intense and criticize other's play regardless of their own skill.

Tonight was the third game, and some new, older players began showing up. Last week I ended heads-up against an upper-classman ("Bully #1")(pretty aggressive, pretty loose, but still more thoughtful than the majority). Tonight one of his friends ("Bully #2") showed up--also looser/more aggressive, but still seemed to consider his hands more than most. In any case, here's the hand I found myself in against him. I don't think it's too sophisticated, but I just wanted to try posting my play and my logic and see what your reactions are.

7 players, very early on (even stacks all around, first 10 hands). I'm second to act, but wait a second as most everyone checks out their cards when they get them. Bully #1 (above)(2 to my left) seems legitimately uninterested and Bully #2 (3 to my left, on the button) checks his cards, glances at his chips and than stares across the table). The guy on my right folds. I'm not inclined to enter being so early, but I see

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

and call. Girl on my left folds, Bully #1 folds, Bully #2 raises 0.20, maniac on his left calls("Crazy"), guy on his left folds and I call. (pot is 1.00) Flop is

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Crazy checks, I bet 0.20, Bully #2 raises to 0.40, Crazy folds and I call. (Pot is 1.80) Turn is

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, Bully #2 bets 0.40. I'm pretty sure he just thinks I'm weak, but I don't rule out his being on A7 or even A2. Earlier I watched him overplay (IMO) A10o, so I don't respect his starting requirements. I call. (Pot is 2.60) River is

6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, he goes all in (around 0.80), I call all-in (around 0.60).

I think the loose/aggressive evaluation is fair(he's been betting/raising on almost every hand), so would a fold here be bad? If he's managed to show-down some weaker hands,(or bet, be re-raised and fold) do I just have to pay him off (go out) if he's managed to hit a full house or trips with a better kicker? Sorry to be so long here, just wanted to give a good feel for where I'm at/what the situation is. If this isn't really a worthwhile hand to discuss, what kinds of hands would be (this just happens to be one where I'm not sure if I made the right move). Thanks for your thoughts,

Blue

[bholdr]

this is a great example of a good time to muck AJ preflop, IMO. it's only gonna get you into trouble.

One thing you might think about is, when you're in a pot with a loose aggressive player (LAG) you're gonna hold, on avarage, much better hands than them. think about re-raising a signifigant ammount preflop- for two reasons: A: you will have a good shot at isolating them - when you're holding a dominating hand, and B: they'll fold they're garbage hands if they know any better- you're in early position and are showing strength. if you think he's a thinking player, it's a pretty easy muck to a re-reraise, and you likely have him crushed if he only calls.

however, this is a tourney, not a cash game. it's not all about getting a little ahead, it's about winning the whole damn thing. you may be best off mucking ad waiting for a better spot to attack the loose guys.

[ QUOTE ]
what kinds of hands would be (this just happens to be one where I'm not sure if I made the right move).

[/ QUOTE ]
that is the perfect kind of hand to post.

maybe try getting your dorm to play for some real $$$, where they will take their stack seriously and your reading abilities and willingness to study the game will give you a big advantage? IMO, it's just worthless to try to put people on hands when A: they are terrible players, and B: they don't care about their chips. (and who the hell does when their beer costs more than their buy-in?)

GL to you. (but luck is the enemy) BTW, what happened? i have him on a weak ace- AT or worse. he may have a house, but... such is life.

[Bartman387]

Agree with the above post, I can see him having a marginal hand at best and just trying to buy his way out of a bluff or thinking you play just as bad of hands as him.

What was the outcome?

[splashpot]

I agree with the others. Also just so you know, strategy type posts like this should go in the micro-limit forum. You'll get much more constructive feedback there.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the others. Also just so you know, strategy type posts like this should go in the micro-limit forum. You'll get much more constructive feedback there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Edit: I overlooked the fact that this hand is a no limit tourny hand. Therefore it should go in the multi-table tourny forum if I'm not mistaken.

[Pov]

Well the problem is you can't put him on anything because you never put any pressure on him whatsoever. If you think your Ace is better than his then bet like it. With a $1 pot on the flop I think you have to bet $.50 at the very minimum in order to get some info on his hand. If he looks comfortable and raises then you can probably get away from this hand. If he has to think a long time (and it doesn't look like an act) then you probably have him.

The fact that your initial preflop read was strength I think there is a great chance he has AK or AQ here so you need to do something to find out if he does in fact have you beat. If you are just going to make one small bet and then call it down to the end then you really need to muck this hand preflop.

Cardinal rule of no limit for me at least: Bet all in, Raise all in, but PLEASE do not Call all in unless you were trapping. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but in this case your opponent has shown strength the entire hand. The problem is you don't know whether to believe his strength because you never tested it.

You have top trips with a decent kicker. Ring game and this is a super easy call even though you expect to lose it frequently. $.60 to call over $3 with top trips I think you have to go with (now that you're stuck here). Tournament . . . well you'd only have 6 BB's if you fold and the BB is coming right up. I think that is right on the border of where you can still afford to fold and hope you get a chance to double through in the next couple of rounds.

I'll be interested to hear the result of the hand. If I was forced to pick an outcome, I think you're beat and there is actually an okay chance you're going to split or narrowly edge ATs.

[Rosencrantz1]

I guess I'm on the fence in terms of folding AJ PF in this case. You've got a lot of LAG and some (sounds like) weak players at the table, and I think the chances of you ending up HU are good even though you'll be OP.

I do agree that your PF betting is a little off. Would have liked to see you raise instead of just calling the BB -- if only because you know you've got two bullies behind you and you need to get a read on their hands early.

Even if you do end up calling the BB, I definitely think a re-raise was in order once it gets back to you. You don't know enough about Bully 2's hand at this point and the raise will tell you (hopefully) something.

Once you get to the river, I guess I like the call. I mean, if you bust, you bust, but I definitely think the bully is on A10 or maybe AQ/AJ, although there is a chance, I suppose, that he's on KK/QQ/JJ as well.

Looking forward to the outcome.

[Pov]

This is for anyone who has posted so far because I'm curious. My read could be way off here and even if it isn't I'd like to know the reasoning that leads to the Villain as being weak for my own education. I definitely have a lot to learn when it comes to tournament play. So anyway, no one has put this guy on anything strong here when I think he has played exactly as though he has an AK or AQ type hand.

He looks strong then raises preflop.
He raises the flop when an Ace hits.
He puts in a pot builder, please don't leave bet when the second Ace hits. (others see this as a weak bet instead I assume?)
He puts in a value bet for our Hero's last $.60 on the end after the Hero called his strength all the way so far.

Hero called on the turn so I don't see the river bet as a bluff. There is basically no chance that Hero doesn't have an Ace here so KK or a worried Ace checks this through . . . Villain may be a bully, but he's been described as a thinking player.

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]

He looks strong then raises preflop.
He raises the flop when an Ace hits.
He puts in a pot builder, please don't leave bet when the second Ace hits. (others see this as a weak bet instead I assume?)
He puts in a value bet for our Hero's last $.60 on the end after the Hero called his strength all the way so far.


[/ QUOTE ]

You bring up a really good point, Pov. Just because villain has previously overplayed a marginal hand doesn't mean that he is doing that now. The only thing that might make me think he isn't sitting on a monster is a raise of only 2xBB. If he was really overplaying weaker stuff before (and let's assume he's not being clever, counting on people having good reads on his style of play and therefore deliberately mixing it up), I would sort of think he'd come in for a stronger raise with AK -- maybe 6xbb?

Let's see the outcome!

[Ilovephysics]

My first guess was AKo-ATo or KQs... but the money situation is making me rethink things a bit. It is very tough because the HERO never tested the Bully.

I.e., I think it is important that both players only started with around $2.00, e.g., 20BB. I think if the Bully had AK/AQ on the turn when their 3rd Ace hit, they would have pushed all-in to take such a large pot compared to their stack. That's typically what weak players do when they think they have the best hand. Only caveat is if they are really scared of being out of the tournament this early..

So I'm starting to lean toward A9-AT. They have to like their hand enough to go all-in against a weak caller who *will* call their all-in, e.g., another Ace, but I doubt they have the best ace or they ould have pushed at the turn.