How to win MTTs: (or how not to be a fish)

[CardSharpCook]

I'm quite sure that I should quit posting here. It seems that every thread I start devolves into controversy, misuderstanding, and bad feelings. In my past five posts, I've been called a cheater, a XXXXing moron, a XXXXing idiot, an imature child who needs to learn to function as an adult (I liked that one), an amatuer, and... well, nothing good anyway. <shrug> I doubt this post will end differently.

I've been reading the recent thread, "what seperates big MTT winners from smaller ones." And I can't help but thinking how you are all advised to be fish, and so many are drinking in this advise as if it were God's Nectar. Lemme tell you a little secret: Coin flips will not win you any tourneys. Going AI with TT and you know your opponent has AK isn't a "good thing". There was one poster in that thread who replied most sagely, "so you're saying that you'd rather play 52 tourneys with 2000 chips than 100 tourneys with 1000chips for the same amount in buy-ins? I'll take the 100 tourneys and 1000 chips." Right on, brother. Play poker, not the lotto. Oh by the way, do the math on this: every tourney has registration fees. If you are going to be flipping coins, you have to be able to cover the registration fees with your odds. That means, 10% fees, you have to be favored 55/45 for it be a push. Sure, sure, the advantage of playing this way is that once you win that first coin flip, the second doesn't knock you out, right? BullXXXX. Do you know why Vegas always wins? Sure, the games are all favor the casino, but they win because the have a functionally unlimited bankroll. They can withstand variance, YOU CAN NOT!!! There is no amount of chip lead that can help you withstand variance to the extent that you need it to. If you play in this style, you are playing the lotto. My brother has a saying, "the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math." Check your math, don't play the lotto.

Ok, so what's my answer? What's my secret? Alright, no one plays like I do. This is a fact. I'm not the best player and trying to emulate me will lead to a lot of trouble.... but I do know some things about tourney poker. First, it is not about getting all your chips in when you are ahead, it is about getting your opponent to put in more chips than he should when he is behind. PF AI is the most vulgar type of poker. I hate to engage in it, but sometimes you do have to be ugly to win. Play the flop. See some cards, play POKER!!!! Ok, putting in more chips than he should. Flop comes 3 to a flush. You have no flush cards, but you do have top pair. Based on Tony's previous play, you think it likely that he has broadway cards and so could easily be holding a nice flush draw. (true, he could also be holding a flush, but we must take risks). Tony's action leads you to believe that he does not have a made hand (whatever that action is for Tony and this board). You bet the pot. Why? If he calls he is getting 2:1 on his money, right? "But wait," you say, "he has a 35% chance of hitting his flush! That's good pot odds!!" No, friends, he has a 20% chance of hitting his flush, because we are going to play the next street the same way. We bet the pot again on the turn. Will he call believing (correctly, this time) that he is a 4:1 dog? He may, he may not, but if he does, we've gotten him to accept terrible odds. Why? Because there are no implied pot odds. If that flush card hits, we are done with the hand (unless our read on Tony is that he DOESN'T have the flush, and will fold to a certain style of bluff). Getting your opponent to accept terrible odds, odds that would make a bookie chortle with glee.

Getting your opponent to bet when he'd rather fold. "what?" you say, "if he's gonna fold, he'll fold." Well, yes, 90% of the time this is true, but some times and with some players, you can get them to bet a hand they have little interest in by using certain tactics. Never bet. Players do this to me all the time. I've got 37o in the BB and I'm dying for them to just bet so I can see the next hand, but then the don't and I start thinking bad thoughts like, "well, maybe I can BLUFF them out!!!" Believe me, I've lost so many chips this way and even lost some tourneys betting a hand I had eveery intention of folding after seeing the flop. Find players like me, do this to them.

Getting your opponent interested in a pot he is way behind in. For those of you who remember the 55 thread, this is a perfect example. For those of you who don't remember, it is better not to look it up. But here is the lesson: scary board, maybe you have a nice piece of it, maybe you only know that you've got a better hand than your opponent. Now what you have to do is play that hand like you are scared, ready and willing to fold. Sometimes that means acting strong, other times it means acting weak - depends on the opponent. But what you want is for your opponent to put more chips into the pot than he ever imagined he'd be willing to risk, given his holding.

Actually, that last point is my next point too. Getting your opponent to play for higher stakes with inferior holdings. Raise to a callable amount PF. We really don't mind seeing a flop with any holding that we willingly play. One of my favorite lines is, "he must have had 72o" I say this when someone goes all-in when there is some 50 chips in the pot. He probably had a playable hand, but the most he could get out of it was 50 chips. Well done sir. Now, how much are you getting out of your money hands? Can you play them in a way that will make them more profitable? I bet you can! Play softer, allow calls. This does not mean limp. NEVER LIMP. But if opponents are used to coming along for the ride when you triple the blinds twice an orbit, let them stay in it with there inferior holdings. Get more bets out of them. True, you are increasing the chance that they will catch one of their five outs, but so what?!? THOSE are the risks you should be taking!!! I love it when my opponent calls down my 1/2 pot bets (which I'll make whether I've paired or not). Really, it makes no sense for them to call down. I've either got a better hand or a better draw, and they have no idea which, but they are risking (or willing to risk) their entire stacks on a couple of ducks!!!! Now we must learn who these players are so we can check when we haven't paired.

Letting go. This is the most important thing. You kill your opponents implied odds by folding when his card shows up. On the other hand, you could be folding to a lot of bluffs, right? Wrong. You are folding to a couple bluffs, sure, but only a small percentage of players are capable of bluffing effectively when a danger card hits. Killing implied odds is the only way my style of poker works. We've kept them in at a price they shouldn't pay, but their miracle card has come. They check to us. hmmm. I think I'll check behind. Am I calling if I am out of position? Yes, no, maybe - depends on my holding, his holding, his style of play. I am not afraid of danger cards unless they help my opponent. If I put him on K3 and I hold AK, I'm still betting the river. How do I know if it helped my opponent? [censored], I don't know, I just trust my reads.

Early chip leads. Early chips leads mean so very little. It is insurance. If I get beat on one hand, I'll not be knocked out. Ok, that is valuable. But more often it simply means you'll be playing more hands in a manner that risks more chips. Well, that's ok, but playing a higher variance game does decrease the value of the chips you've won. I have a saying, "Early chip leads have a way of disappearing. You can open up your play and you will probably lose your lead. Or you can sit back and wait, and you WILL lose your lead. But, sometimes buying time is good enough." Which style should you choose? Depends on the table, depends on the cards, depends on how you feel.

Getting dragged into the money. I remember one party 350K tourney in which I was knocked down to 390 chips (through absolute idiocy (on my part - my opponents are never idiots (that isn't sarcasim))) with 2100 players remaining. I never again had more chips than I started with (2500), but I finished in the top 500. How? Patience. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, push, wait, wait, wait...10BB-6BB, I'm perfectly happy folding AJo PF when another player raises. 6BB-4BB, still folding AJo depending on raiser, but now I am stealing with Q9o in the hijack seat. I'm really opening up with 6-4BB. 4BB>, accepting any offer of a probable coin flip, and offering coin flips to any that will take.

But see, none of this matters if you don't know how to play the final table. I have played 1000s of SNGs, and I suggest you do the same (I'm sure many of you have). And you got to play these so aggresively. Raises, re-raises, steals with 37o, etc, etc. No one wants to bust out at this point and they are folding far more than they should. Correction, they are folding as they should, and as I would if I were in their shoes. Well, I do playback a lot more than they do. There is a culinary rule called FIFO, First In, First Out. It has to do with stock rotation, but the words apply to poker. Either you are First In, or you get the XXXX out of there. And you SHOULD!!!! and so should they, but they don't always, but that is ok too. I can't tell you all you need to know about final tables. But PLEASE play SNGs before you play MTTs.

Ok, That is basic tourney theory according to CSC. Now, lets hear what a rank amatuerish moron I am. Come on, bring it on.

CSC

[MSUcougar]

Nice post. I like that you took the time to write something like this. Different perspectives are always helpful...

As for stopping posting on the forum, I think you should maybe try to have a little bit thicker skin. If you post something even slightly controversial, of course you're gonna run into people that disagree with you. As my dad would say, pick the fish and leave the bone.

[woodguy]

I know that you won a $350K Sunday at Stars, I am curious to what other tourneys you have won as you speak like you have won many.

Not flaming, just curious.

Regards,
Woodguy

[TheTimeIsUp]

Not a bad post. Would you explain more thoroughly how SNGs can relate to MTTs?

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a bad post. Would you explain more thoroughly how SNGs can relate to MTTs?

[/ QUOTE ]

betting/raising/calling/folding with high blinds and bubble play, I guess

[TheTimeIsUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not a bad post. Would you explain more thoroughly how SNGs can relate to MTTs?

[/ QUOTE ]

betting/raising/calling/folding with high blinds and bubble play, I guess

[/ QUOTE ]

I played tons and tons and tons of SNGs, and I feel that it hurt my MTT game drasitcally due to the terribly high blinds and pushing with literally any 2.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a bad post. Would you explain more thoroughly how SNGs can relate to MTTs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting to the final table is only useful if you know how to place first once you do.

Most pure MTT players don't have the short handed and HU skills they need to make it to first instead of, say, sixth. You pretty much have to get them from SNG's or get really lucky; they teach you a lot about bubble play, math needed to make a call or a push, folding equity, and aggression that you can't get without playing literally thousands of big multis.

It's much much easier to transition to a winning MTT player after beating SNG's for a long period of time.

[MLG]

adanthar I think your post is spot on when it comes to the final table. however, I think a lot of sit n go players have a very hard time in the middle stages of tournaments. there is really no point in a sit n go where the blinds are high and bubble considerations aren't in play, while those situations arise in mtts somewhat frequently.

[minwoo]

SNG's are ALL ABOUT BUBBLE PLAY. It is usually your bubble play that breaks or makes you. You can start out as the high stack when there are 5 ppl left and blinds are 50/100, but if you play it wrong, you can very well end in 3rd or even OTM. On Party SNGs ($33 tables)..the bubble play starts in about 30 min or so.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
adanthar I think your post is spot on when it comes to the final table. however, I think a lot of sit n go players have a very hard time in the middle stages of tournaments. there is really no point in a sit n go where the blinds are high and bubble considerations aren't in play, while those situations arise in mtts somewhat frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what big adjustments do you think are needed to move between these two situations (to clarify, I mean shortstacked relative to the blinds, bubble vs. no bubble)? The way I think of it right now is that the bubble is where $ EV plays can start looking substantially different from chip EV plays. Is this what you mean, or is there something else? I could imagine that you might mean that people play somewhat looser in shortstack scenarios that are still far from the bubble, for example, which I don't really have enough MTT experience to have a conclusive opinion on.