This was just a mess.

[BeerMoney]

Again, BrinkBrown owns me.
BrinkBrown is the bring in.

When he reraised me on 3rd, I figured him for the aces. However, we've built a big pot with all of this raising, and my cards are live. When he gets the ace on fourth, I'm in trouble. Again, big pot, let's call, its fun.

When the 6 seat raises on 6th street, I figure its time to move on. Give me a plan of action on this disaster.

As a side not. 7 stud really puts you in a lot of difficult situations, I can see where some people would really be able to make some $$ at this game if they are good.

7 Card Stud High (10/20), ante 1.

3rd Street

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]__calls__folds
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]__folds
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]__folds
Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]__completes__calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]__raises__calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]__calls__calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]__bring-ins (3)__raises

4th Street

Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]__calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]__calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]__calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]__bets

5th Street

Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]__folds
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]__calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]__calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]__bets

6th Street

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]__calls__folds
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]__raises
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]__bets__calls

River

Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx__bets
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx__checks__calls

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
let's call, its fun.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
I love it.

What I dont love is your hand on fourth. BrinkBrown is a fairly decent player and while you made it $20 on third its time to muck. An ace high three flush on third that just spiked aces or (A2)2 that just made aces up would be what I put him on. But "lets call, its fun". [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Since you got yourself into a mess, I see no other way to play your hand once you call on fourth. I can tell you what you should already know when the 6 seat raises to $40 on sixth........(TJ)9Q58. At least most likely anyway. If not that then a probable set as thats a ballzy raise with anything else. Either way you are screwed and now should fold. Remember, "only by avoiding the beginning of things can we escape their ending".

Mike Emery

[Andy B]

I think a case can be made for folding on third street. The re-raise-with-a-smaller-pair-and-a-bigger-kicker thing applies to bigger ante games because

1) there is more money to fight over and

2) the original raiser is less likely to have what he is representing.

When the bring-in three-bets, his most likely hand is pocket Aces, followed by rolled-up trips. A big three-flush might be a possibility, but I don't think most play that way. Maybe he has pocket Kings. I think fourth street is a fold, because you're most likely looking at a set, and if he has one of the other possible hands, it's not like you're in great shape anyway.

Or just call off the rest of your money. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[BeerMoney]

Thanks for your time to respond. I agree with your thoughts. However, this opponent is aggressive just enough to make me pay off here. Poker's hard for us mortals.

I think you're right about the fold on fourth, cause it all comes down to the fact that all I have is a lousy pair of 7's.

[CarlosChadha]

Hi All,

Andy is right about perhaps folding 3rd. Some finer points to consider, most of which center around reading your opponent by looking at the board from his position: The diamonds are very dead. This is bad because it makes it less likely that the J is raising with a flush draw, and since you have a diamond as a door card it makes the chances of your catching suited cards to scare your opponent into folding smaller (plus even if you do catch, since they are dead, it is not very threatening). 2nd, a 9, Q, and K are dead, which make it less likely statistically that your opponent is raising with a 3 str8 or high cards like 9TJ, TJQ, JQK, JKA, or JQA. Even if does have one of the str8 hands, he might be less inclined to raise with them because he knows the hand is weaker due to dead pair cards, and dead str8 cards (this includes the 8). 3rd, there has already been a limper, which means he knows he probably won't steal the antes, so he is more likely raising for value with a P higher than 6s. Lastly, there is a K behind him, which means a higher chance of running into a pair of kings, or a hand that has 3 overcard outs, so in order for him to put in this raise he has to have a stronger hand.

A more relevant factor (than the above small points) about playing the hand is how likely it is that you will get it heads up. So if the limper and the 9c are likely to fold a pair less than Js for 2 bets you should be more inclined to raise. Another thing to notice is that all the clubs are live, which makes it slightly more likely that the 9 will call with a flush draw. This the point where in a live game you would glance to your left to see if the 9 was ready to throw away his hand. Playing this hand in a 3 or 4 handed pot (for a raise) is a disaster, so if you might not be able to get it heads up you should fold, not call and invite others in.

After this whole analysis it seems highly likely that you are behind on 3rd and should fold for just a single raise. Andy mentioned that playing would be more appropriate in a higher ante game, but actually given this specific board his second condition that the raiser is less likely to have what he is representing doesn't apply. In fact, assuming that higher ante means higher limit, and therefore more observant, thinking opposition, it is MORE likely that your opponent has noticed some or all of the factors above, and has therefore adjusted his raising standards to favor only his better hands.

Regards,
Carlos

[BeerMoney]

Carlos, what about the fact that I've already made it 2 bets? Does the size of the pot warrant peeling one or two off?

[snowden719]

I disagree with the others that this is a fold on third street, as the size of the pot and the fact that your 7's and kings are totally live and with the amount of money in the pot you're justified in getting one card and seeing if you can make trips or kings up, however, once you brick on 4th and the bring in makes and ace you are drawing rather slim in all likelihood, and in a multiway pot with a hand that wants to be heads up. I think 3rd street is fine, but this hand needs to get tossed on 4th due to the fact that you're most certainly behind, and quite possibley very far behind.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i don't mind the 3rd street play, but the rest of the hand is a big mess. your board isn't really getting any better while other people like their boards enough to stay in and it would be terrible for you to be drawing slim against a set already. i vote to fold on 4th.

[CarlosChadha]

Hey Beer, the analysis I gave above was only concerning folding for the very first completion by the J. Once you decide to raise, and are getting about 11-1 on your call of the bring-ins reraise, it is a definite call. Had the bring in hit any other card besises an A or a 2 and it was again one bet to you, a call on 4th would have also been correct.

-Carlos