Four card flushes

[MickeyT]

I'm never too sure about how to play 4 card flushes - specifically on 5th and 6th streets. Below is an example. Am I right to raise on 5th st?

Tournament - 7 Card Stud High (15/30), Ante 2, Bring-In 5

Seat 1: (1092)
Seat 2: (655)
Seat 3: (765)
Seat 4: (871)
Seat 5: (720)
Hero: (750)
Seat 7: (681)
Seat 8: (866)

3rd Street

Seat 1: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

6th Street

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

River

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

[Michael Emery]

It all looks good Mickey. Third you have live big cards in addition to the three flush so I like the raise. Fourth is an obvious bet given your improvement and your board. Fifth you could have opted to just call as you open yourself to a three-bet if its aces up that lead out. But I'm agressive too and dont mind the fifth street raise. It ended up working out nicely for you as you were able to buy a free card when you missed on sixth. Seventh you played terribly as you didnt catch your heart. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Mike Emery

[djr]

I've just recently started playing stud so take this with a grain of salt. I'd like to take a stab at this and see if I get flamed on it.

On fifth street you have no made hand, a flush draw with 6 outs and need runner/runner for a straight. You're looking at a bettor and a caller with one left to act who's showing only low cards and will probably fold regardless of what you do now. Your raise is good for only one thing, buying a free card on 6th street which is by no means a garautee. Yeah yeah, it will build a pot, but I'd say your equity is around 25% (I'm thinking hitting a pair probably won't win this given seat two is fronting aces) against two players thats a -EV move in and of itself.

I'd say call it down.

[Andy B]

On fifth, I think you should only call. A few hearts are gone. You're beaten on board. By raising, you're only going to maybe knock out one guy, and he may well be folding anyway. I wouldn't really like it too much if the original bettor three-bet. Other than that, you played fine. The time to force a four-flush is on fourth street, when you have lots of equity. It might still be worth betting aggressively on fifth, but your hand needs to be very live.

[timmer]

Im with Andy on this on... well almost.

I can see the validity of a raise on 5th to knock out players in case you make an open pair and river two pair . If this is the instance you would rather be against one opponent. However in this case I feel there is a real possibility that some one already has an over pair on you or two pair. In as much I think it might be correct to call or even fold as your hearts are dieing a quick and unmerciful death And the pot is fairly small. If this is the case simply calling on 5th might lead to trouble on 6th. and on 7th you will likely be forced to fold if you dont catch two pair or a flush. However if you do call on 5th and make a flush on the river you will likely get into a raising situation that has great value.

all that being said I dont really like raising on a big bet street with poor drawing value ( 3 dead hearts and a poor redraw at a straight) unless I have some real value as well or there is high folding equity involved. Since few opponents were forced to call two cold on 5th no real opposition to your hands secondary outs would likely fold. this being the case you would likely welcome weak over calls from the field even if it ment making a pretty long draw to win. which will likely be the case anyway.

Also you might try to see your board through your opponents eyes which is 2nd best on 5th and 3rd best on 6th. this will undoubtedly effect the way your hand is perceved by your opponents. manipulating this perception toward your advantage is one of the key values more advanced stud players take advantage of ( Im sure I am just reiterating the obvious but this factor does bare reiteration).

remember folding semi dead draws even big ones aint a crime, unless the pot is really big. raising weak opposition out when your only true value is making your draw ( no folding equity, no second best redraw or weak secondary outs to a win) is.

[MickeyT]

[ QUOTE ]


In as much I think it might be correct to call or even fold as your hearts are dieing a quick and unmerciful death

[/ QUOTE ]

There were 2 dead hearts on 3rd st - which makes me a bit iffy about playing the flush draw but since I have big cards I play. By 5th street I've caught a heart and only 1 more heart has died - I reckon that makes my chances of making the flush pretty high. Surely not worth a fold at this stage.
But - I agree I think a call would have been better than the raise.