Interesting Hand, 3/6 Expert/Informed Advice Appreciated

[PokerAmateur4]

Hello,
I'm on Pacific Poker and was recently trying a raise from my 1/2 to 2/4 and 3/6. This hand concerns a 3/6 table, if you are not familiar with Pacific Poker, people are generally poor at play. I would like to know the ideal way I should of handled this hand and what goes into the thought process. Any help is greatly appreciated.

9 seated, 6th seat is Hero,
(4th seat posted)
1stSB
2nd BB
3rd cal
4th check
5th call
6 Hero call ( 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] based on http://www.lowlimitholdem.com/StartingHands_4.htm somewhat)
7 fold
8 raise
9 *button call
1-6(hero) call
$46 in pot
2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
all check, 9 bet
1-3 fold
4,5,6,8 call
$60 in pot turn= 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
$6 bet by button
all call
$90 in pot turn= 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 checks, I bet, 2 callers(better and 5)
Hero wins 103.25

I usually don't call on runner draws but pot size was so large and so many people, I thought I may have implied odds, thanks for feedback.

[ThePenguin]

Did anybody else try to read this and get lost after the flop?

[Harv72b]

I think I followed it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

First things first...MP1 is generally too early for T9s on a 3/6 table. There are always exceptions, and if you can be relatively sure that the flop will be at least 5-handed and there will not be a raise behind you, it's okay. Unfortunately, it was raised behind you...playing for a PFR will often kill the value of playing suited connectors.

The flop is an easy fold for 1 SB. Even though the pot is fairly large, you are pretty much only drawing to your backdoor flush & straights...about 2 outs total. You'd need a positively huge pot to justify a call there. Implied odds simply don't exist on a backdoor draw like this--you are never going to make up the shortcoming in your flop/turn pot odds with river bets.

Also, for format's sake...it's a lot easier on everyone if you can use the accepted format from BisonBison's hand converter. Unfortunately Pacific is not a supported site, but you can hand-code it, or at least lay your hands out in a similar fashion, to make it simpler for us to follow along with the hand. Pretty much every hand thread on this forum uses that format.

It's also helpful to post pot sizes in terms of small & big bets, rather than dollars. You should be thinking of your winnings (or losses) in those terms, anyway. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jt1]

Yea use bisons converter, and post only 2 hands a day max and as a rule reply more often than you posts. That there is good rule of thumb for keeping the forum clean.

As for your hand. T9s is solid and as such can be played there if you expect at least one more limper (and if you wouldn't be surprised that many more come along) and you don't expect a raise. In other words, a loose passive table-

The flop call isn't terribe since the pot is so big and the 9 hole might have just been betting since it was checked to him, and you have two overs to mid pair.

Over all, however, I'd play more ABC for a bit longer. ABC has you folding pre-flop and folding the flop.

[PokerAmateur4]

Thanks for those posts, I do think of my winnings in terms of number of blinds, I will change the format here on out. Also try to post better format with hands.

What does MP1, FPR, and ABC mean(always be closing? Glen Garry Glen Ross rules) Couldn't find a definition online.

Further on hand:
(rough aproximations follow{Pacific gives you only maybe 10 seconds to act)
The way I saw it, getting to the flop was justified.
Post flop with these callers I was getting about 1:20 to see the turn. If I hit a club, I would then on out have to only call a 1:12 or so to get the 1:5 odds of hitting the flush on the river.
Or if I had hit a Q or 8 on turn I would get maybe 1:6 for inside straight draw.

[jt1]

MP1 = the first middle position seat
PFR = preflop raiser
ABC poker = standard poker usually referring to what you would do if you had no reads

you had 20-1 to see the turn not 1-20 to see the flop as you said.

a backdoor draw is worth about 1.5 outs so you had 2-3 outs to see the turn. If in fact you had 20-1 then it's not a bad call given that you possibly had 2 overs too.

[Estydogg]

I think it's an alright call. Not as bad as the people at the table must of been saying to you. However I wouldn't take it because your clubs might not be the nuts. All the people still in might have trips or two pair making some of your clubs hurt you, and if a non club that helps your hand hits your will be tempted to stay in.

But the huge pots odds make this play satisfactory.

[einbert]

Hi PokerAmateur,

I am certainly no expert but I believed you played this hand perfectly. In fact I would have played it the very same way.

Regards,
einbert

[hate]

I don't get this, I'd be playing T9s at any position. As for the flop, two weak draws and a huge pot, I would definitely peel one off. No-gap straight runner runners are 1.5 outs, bd flush draws are also 1.5 outs. Don't discount the bd flush draw because it's T-high, if that's what you're thinking. Immediate odds may not justify this call, but implied in addition easily do. There was a similar hand in SSH about two weak draws equalling a stronger hand, although I think one was a gutshot instead, both weren't backdoors. But this pot's already huge.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get this, I'd be playing T9s at any position. As for the flop, two weak draws and a huge pot, I would definitely peel one off. No-gap straight runner runners are 1.5 outs, bd flush draws are also 1.5 outs. Don't discount the bd flush draw because it's T-high, if that's what you're thinking. Immediate odds may not justify this call, but implied in addition easily do. There was a similar hand in SSH about two weak draws equalling a stronger hand, although I think one was a gutshot instead, both weren't backdoors. But this pot's already huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that SSH hand is the one I'm thinking of, the draws in question were something like a gutshot + backdoor flush + overcards, the overcards being the huge distinction between that situation and this one. Hero is very unlikely to win by spiking a pair on the turn or river, leaving him with only the two backdoor draws. Even if you give a full 3 outs, Hero would need to be getting about 16:1 to justify a flop call (which he's not). Implied odds would have to be weighted by the fact that Hero's draws both require two streets to come to fruition, meaning that Hero is actually required to put at least 1.5 BBs in before he could possibly hit a hand that might win the pot. If you're generous and assume a 14 BB pot after the turn, Hero then needs to make up in implied odds for the calls he's making at about 10:1. That's just not likely to happen (and has to be weighted further by the times he hits his flush or straight, but loses to a higher one/full house). It's not a good flop call unless he can all but guarantee that all the limpers will call to showdown, and the pot will never be raised except by Hero.

As far as limping T9s from up front, I think that's a little more debatable. I still don't like doing it on most 3/6 tables (read: tight/aggressive), but I know there are others who do so and would swear by it. Generally speaking, I just don't like to limp, period, from the first 4 seats.