15/30 TT with an overcard vs a TAG. how's this line?

kurosh · #1 03-13-2005, 07:53 PM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

BB is a TAG. I'm not sure if I like this line.

Super Pro · #2 03-13-2005, 07:55 PM

flop cap sucks

PokerBob · #3 03-13-2005, 08:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

BB is a TAG. I'm not sure if I like this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO you are chip-spewing. A tag may try this line with AQ-ATs to attempt to get you off of a big ace if rags hit the flop, but there is a K out there. It clearly doesn't scare him. It should scare you.

kurosh · #4 03-13-2005, 08:15 PM

What would you suggest instead?

PokerBob · #5 03-13-2005, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

BB is a TAG. I'm not sure if I like this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that there are 2 possibilites.
(1) call the flop raise and fold the turn UI. It feels weak, but I think it feels right, too. If he is making a move, good for him.

(2) Smooth call the flop and pop the turn if a brick hits. IMO this way you may geta free showdonw for 5SB, whereas with your line, you invested 4SB and dumped it.

The real question is, would villain 3-bet the pf raiser if he couldn't beat a K? I kinda doubt it.

EDIT: I should add that I have played all of 30 hands at 15/30, so I may be way out of my league here.

kurosh · #6 03-13-2005, 10:15 PM

I think calling the 3-bet and folding the turn UI is probably the worst choice, which is what led me to this line. The only card I'm going to be happy seeing is a T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I'm pretty much throwing that 1SB away by calling the 3-bet.

Smooth calling the flop and popping the turn is ok but there are better lines. If he has a strong hand you're going to get 3-bet or led into on the river and there goes your free showdown. You might get him to fold a K but if he's leading into you on the flop, I doubt it. I'd rather just call down. If we were HU, I'd call down from the flop but I didn't want the SB to tag along.

I think after I've been 3-bet there are only 2 options. Folding or raising. Calling would only be for meta-game reasons. Capping the flop sends an extremely strong signal to the BB. A lot of times people will lead and 3-bet with strong draws or midpair or a pocket pair below the top pair (88, 99). When I cap, I find out exactly where I'm out on the turn. Him leading out makes it an extremely easy fold. Had he not led out, I would've checked behind and called a bet on the river.

Oh and I don't care what limits you play. I look at the advice you give.

Edit: Ok, after thinking about this some more, I see three possible lines to take.

1) Fold to the flop bet.
2) What I did.
3) Call down.

In order of what I think is best.

PokerBob · #7 03-14-2005, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think calling the 3-bet and folding the turn UI is probably the worst choice, which is what led me to this line. The only card I'm going to be happy seeing is a T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I'm pretty much throwing that 1SB away by calling the 3-bet.

Smooth calling the flop and popping the turn is ok but there are better lines. If he has a strong hand you're going to get 3-bet or led into on the river and there goes your free showdown. You might get him to fold a K but if he's leading into you on the flop, I doubt it. I'd rather just call down. If we were HU, I'd call down from the flop but I didn't want the SB to tag along.

I think after I've been 3-bet there are only 2 options. Folding or raising. Calling would only be for meta-game reasons. Capping the flop sends an extremely strong signal to the BB. A lot of times people will lead and 3-bet with strong draws or midpair or a pocket pair below the top pair (88, 99). When I cap, I find out exactly where I'm out on the turn. Him leading out makes it an extremely easy fold. Had he not led out, I would've checked behind and called a bet on the river.

Oh and I don't care what limits you play. I look at the advice you give.

Edit: Ok, after thinking about this some more, I see three possible lines to take.

1) Fold to the flop bet.
2) What I did.
3) Call down.

In order of what I think is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have got to believe that he isn't fooling around by betting into you on this flop. Would he bet here hoping that you have AQ or QQ-TT? That would take some stones.

I think folding to the flop bet may be weak tight, but I don't hate it. After more thought, I think I could live with poppiing the flop and having that be the last bet I put in the pot, unless it checks to me on the river. I hate this hand by the way.

kurosh · #8 03-14-2005, 02:43 AM

I'd really appreciate some more opinions on this hand. I think it's pretty interesting.

SCfuji · #9 03-16-2005, 02:21 AM

a few different things about this hand.

1) its 15/30
2) the board isnt paired
3) i had a rainbow flop

i think with this hand that you posted there are more drawy possibilities in addition to the overcard. id probably call down the 3-bet in your situation.