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#1
03-10-2005, 06:17 PM
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I need a tongue lashing from a good MTT player
First, some quick background on myself. The vast majority of my play is STT's. I've amassed excellent ROI's over statistically significant sample sizes at both $30 and $50 (30% & 25% respectively). I say this only to make clear that I certainly 'know' what I'm doing, but I've reached a point in my MTT career that I have to admit something:
I suck at MTT's. Wow, that feel's better. In order to make good money in MTT's, you must make final tables. That's clear. To make these tables you must build a stack at some point. In STT's, I simply play tight early, and often double up when I hit a BIG hand like trips. Otherwise, I'm pretty much folding a lot and rarely preflop raising. This is correct strategy. But it's clearly not in MTT's, where I consistently survive longer than the average player in the field, but rarely with a top notch stack. So, my question: What general strategy changes do I need to make in order to be able to get better at MTT's? Thanks in advance. 
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#2
03-10-2005, 06:24 PM
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Re: I need a tongue lashing from a good MTT player
there's a referral post. generally loosen up and open up mid-late game. the majority of poker that's being played doesn't see a flop. early your'e playing good solid poker, you want to hit your trips and have them pay etc. later on you just want to take down the pots right then and there.
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#3
03-10-2005, 06:26 PM
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Re: I need a tongue lashing from a good MTT player
You mention that you rarely raise in STT, and then you go on to say this is correct strategy. What, when, how and where did you learn this? That is completely false and unsubstantiated.
Also, there is absolutely no way we can help your MTT game from that breif tidbit you posted. Why don't you help yourself by starting to post hands on a regular basis, get involved in the day to day threads here, they are tremendously helpful. Also, do yourself a favor and learn how to RAISE. ok? next....
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#4
03-10-2005, 06:38 PM
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Re: I need a tongue lashing from a good MTT player
They key to MTT's is strictly to survive, until someone makes a mistake or you start catching cards. Stealing blinds from late position is also key. You can play tight and make the cut lines, but you will not make final tables. You need to open up your game and play riskier hands when the table tightens up. If you get trapped with a bunch of loose players, you have no choice, but to play tight.
On the other hand, you are probably going to have to win one coin toss. I.E. Your pocket nines out race AK. Also, you need to make one big bluff, that you do not get caught making. When you make the final three tables and they become shorthanded, positional play become even more important. Hands like KQ and KJ, become raising hands. If you have position on someone and you think they are weak, reraise them. Force them to a decision. Good Luck, see you at the Final Table.
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#5
03-10-2005, 06:43 PM
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Re: I need a tongue lashing from a good MTT player
[ QUOTE ]
You mention that you rarely raise in STT, and then you go on to say this is correct strategy. What, when, how and where did you learn this? That is completely false and unsubstantiated. [/ QUOTE ] I was referring, although I'm not sure I worded it correctly, about early STT play. There's no point in getting involved in large pots (especially out of position) with marginal hands in these tournaments when the blinds are small, because the prize structure (top 3 of 10) get paid. You cash in these tourneys from extremely tight/aggressive play early, and loose/agressive play late. In a MTT, however, this leaves you floating around the starting stack far too long into the tourney. [ QUOTE ] Also, there is absolutely no way we can help your MTT game from that breif tidbit you posted. [/ QUOTE ] Sure there is. Players who have had both success with STT's and MTT's could fill me in on their varying approach to both formats. I'm pretty solid with theory, knowing hand ranges, and post flop play, so what I'm looking for is the 'general mindset' of an MTT player vs. that of a STT player. You play many STT's? You bring a looser MTT strategy in there and you'll get clobbered or fall short of optimal ROI by a large margin.
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#6
03-10-2005, 06:46 PM
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Re: I need a tongue lashing from a good MTT player
[ QUOTE ]
They key to MTT's is strictly to survive, until someone makes a mistake or you start catching cards. Stealing blinds from late position is also key. You can play tight and make the cut lines, but you will not make final tables. You need to open up your game and play riskier hands when the table tightens up. If you get trapped with a bunch of loose players, you have no choice, but to play tight. On the other hand, you are probably going to have to win one coin toss. I.E. Your pocket nines out race AK. Also, you need to make one big bluff, that you do not get caught making. When you make the final three tables and they become shorthanded, positional play become even more important. Hands like KQ and KJ, become raising hands. If you have position on someone and you think they are weak, reraise them. Force them to a decision. Good Luck, see you at the Final Table. [/ QUOTE ] So you're in the survival camp, as oppossed to the accumulators? Question: Would you say that a late game STT strategy is correct to adopt in an MTT? In other words, do you need less of an edge to reraise or push, since you need to accumulate more chips?
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#7
03-10-2005, 06:47 PM
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Re: I need a tongue lashing from a good MTT player
First of all, you are probably not as bad at MTTs as you think. You're expectations are probably much too high. If there are 1000 people in an online tournament, the average player has about a 1/100 chance of making the final table. If you are a good player, then maybe you have a 1/75 chance of making the final table. If you are a great player, you have maybe a 1/50 chance. What does that mean? It means that even a great player has a 13% chance of playing in 100 tournaments and never making the final table ( (49/50)^100 ). That is just the nature of online tournaments. There is A LOT of luck involved. Skill can only take you so far. You must catch a lot of great cards and win a lot of coin flips.
IMO there are four things that separate the great MTT players from the good ones: (1) Stealing, (2) capitalizing on small edges, (3) maximizing value, and (4) all-in free throws. (1) Great tournament players know that the best way to build your stack with little risk is to steal pots. These players also know how to find the weaktight players who will fold too much. (2) Great online players also respect the high variance in online MTTs and are willing to exploit small edges. They are also great at spotting these situations. A great online MTT will be able to spot situations in which he is a 55/45 favorite and get all of his money in the pot. (3) Great online players know that situations in which you are a huge favorite can be few and far between. Great players know how to extract every last penny out of these situations. Great players will not pussy out of value betting a river when they probably have someone outkicked becuase they know that every chip not gained is a chip lost. (4) Great online players also know that in most tournaments they play, they will reach a point where they must go all-in or fold. Great players have studied these situations before they play and do not have to play guessing games when it comes time to move in. I am not a great MTT player, but hopefully some day I will. I think my biggest weakness, and the weakness of most good but not great players, is not stealing enough or picking the wrong situations to try and steal.
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#8
03-10-2005, 06:56 PM
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Re: I need a tongue lashing from a good MTT player
[ QUOTE ]
Question: Would you say that a late game STT strategy is correct to adopt in an MTT? In other words, do you need less of an edge to reraise or push, since you need to accumulate more chips? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, exactly
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#9
03-10-2005, 07:00 PM
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Re: I need a tongue lashing from a good MTT player
This is an excellent post. Thank you.
[ QUOTE ] First of all, you are probably not as bad at MTTs as you think. You're expectations are probably much too high. If there are 1000 people in an online tournament, the average player has about a 1/100 chance of making the final table. If you are a good player, than maybe you have a 1/75 chance of making the final table. If you are a great player, you have maybe a 1/50 chance. What does that mean? It means that even a great player has a 13% chance of playing in 100 tournaments and never making the final table ( (49/50)^100 ). That is just the nature of online tournaments. There is A LOT of luck involved. Skill can only take you so far. You must catch a lot of great cards and win a lot of coin flips. [/ QUOTE ] I've thought of that, and you're most likely correct. My worry comes from the consistent pattern my MTT results show. As an example, say the avg. MTT I play in has 500 players and the top 80 get paid. I place something like 50-175 far too often. Beating the average player, but rarely cashing big. It's kept me from playing too many, because it's hard to pass up that $60-$70/hour playing STT's. So I think there's something fundamentally wrong with my approach, even if I'm better than the average player in the field. [ QUOTE ] (2) Great online players also respect the high variance in online MTTs and are willing to exploit small edges. They are also great at spotting these situations. A great online MTT will be able to spot situations in which he is a 55/45 favorite and get all of his money in the pot. [/ QUOTE ] See, this is important. Early in a STT, I would absolutely pass on a 55/45 edge for all my chips. Being a better player than the average at my level, it's an easy decision with many more hands to come. But, in an MTT, I'm thinking that passing this edge at any point is a mistake, because you MUST build a stack. So here might be a leak in my game. I have AK on the button early in an STT. An UTG player opens the pot for a 4BB raise. In an STT, I'll call this bet, not raise, because AK isn't quite a 3:2 favorite against a typical UTG raising hand. But it's safe to say that it's usually better than 11:9. So, in an MTT, I should be reraising AK here? Is that more of the correct thinking? [ QUOTE ] Great players will not pussy out of value betting a river when they probably have someone outkicked becuase they know that every chip not gained is a chip lost. [/ QUOTE ] Ah, I like this one, too. Often in a STT, I'll back off a value bet to conserve chips if I am wary of my hand. Again, falling back to prize structure implications.
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#10
03-10-2005, 07:15 PM
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Re: I need a tongue lashing from a good MTT player
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] (2) Great online players also respect the high variance in online MTTs and are willing to exploit small edges. They are also great at spotting these situations. A great online MTT will be able to spot situations in which he is a 55/45 favorite and get all of his money in the pot. [/ QUOTE ] See, this is important. Early in a STT, I would absolutely pass on a 55/45 edge for all my chips. Being a better player than the average at my level, it's an easy decision with many more hands to come. But, in an MTT, I'm thinking that passing this edge at any point is a mistake, because you MUST build a stack. [/ QUOTE ] Bingo. It took me a long time to get this thru my head, because let's face it, about half the time you're out early. But it's absolutely crucial to recognize and capitalize on these situations if you're going to make the final table. You will be faced with 3 or 4 of them over the course of a larger tourney.
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