Tournament Tipping

[BoxTree]

This post attempts to make a conclusion from earlier threads regarding tipping and dealers' wages.

Dealer wage assumptions:

Dealers earn ~$15/hr. and work 40 hrs/wk. and 50 wks/yr. (That's an annual salary of $30,000, btw.)

In a 40-person tournament that lasts four hours, there are four dealers. To keep the math simple, let's assume that all four dealers deal for all four hours -- that gives us 16 dealer hours. (In reality, the total number of dealer hours will be somewhat lower.)

16 dealer hours * $15/hr. = $240.

Let's say this is a $100 + fee tournament. $4,000 in prize money.

Payouts:
1st (40%): $1,600.
2nd (25%): $1,000.
3rd (15%): $600.
4th (11%): $440.
5th (9%): $360.

Tip money = $240.
1st (40%): $96.
2nd (25%): $60.
3rd (15%): $36.
4th (11%): $26.
5th (9%): $22.

So, if each winner were to tip the same percentage, each winner would tip 6% of his winnings.

But let's say the buy-in was $50 + fee. $2,000 in prize money. The dealer toke is still $240, so each player would now be tipping 12%.

If the buy-in were $200 + fee, each player would tip 3%.

So, the range for tournament tipping is quite large given these assumptions. But these assumptions aren't rigid.

If you think dealers should only be making $12/hr. or $25/hr. etc., adjust accordingly.

If you think 1st place should tip a higher (or lower) percentage than 5th place, make another adjustment.

If you think you can get a better estimate of the actual number of dealer hours in a tournament, use your estimate.

And if you think tournament tipping should be affected by the quality of the tournament dealers, keep that in mind as well.

Personally, I would consider dealer hours and I would tip based on the normative belief that dealers should make ~30k/yr. (~$15/hr.) I would also assume that each winner is tipping the same percentage (even though I know that this is highly unlikely to be true, I'd rather make this assumption than cover the undertipping or benefit from the overtipping of my fellow winners). I would not consider the quality of the dealers when determining how much I tip in a tournament.

What's the point of this post? I've heard that players should tip 5-10%. I've also heard that players should tip 3-8%, etc. Who is right? While I think it's obvious that there's no clear-cut answer, I think it helps to have some sort of rubric to determine what to tip. Hence, this post. If you believe that I should add/delete/modify my rubric, please post your reasoning.

[The Armchair]

FLAW ONE:

Imagine that there's a 1000+fee tournament at a casino that draws 100 people and takes 5 hours to complete. We'll call that 25 dealer-hours. Payout goes to top ten, although doing the breakdown mathematically is superfluous if we assume each winner should tip the same percentage (do you see why? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ).

Still, we'll put first place at $40k, or 40% of the pool.

You want the dealers to get $15/hr. That comes out to $375 total. Of that, our $40k winner would be responsible for a $150 tip. That is embarrasingly low. From the player's perspective you simply cannot tip this little without being an ass.

In a case like this, a low-percentage tip -- say, 1.5% -- is still $600. It is much higher than your normative rate, but anything significantly less would be not nearly enough.


FLAW TWO:
If you're concerned with the normative rate, why only tip if you win? If you are in a tournament for three hours, and you average 10 players per table (because I want to make the math easy), and you want to make sure the dealers get their $15/hr, well, walk over to the tournament director and give him your share -- $4.50.

But you'd never do that in any other tipping situation. At a restaurant, you do not figure out the wage of the waiter, figure out how much your table owes him, and then divide by the number of people. (Okay, maybe
you do.) It is an outcome-based event, and the waiter/dealer knows that. If we assume that they entered into the job with this knowledge (or at least stayed there with this knowledge), we should honor that expectation.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

I'm not a tournament player, so I guess I don't really know, but does anyone other than the winner or maybe the top two players tip the dealer?

[PokerFink]

My understanding is that anyone who makes a solid return on their investment (buy-in) should tip. If you're barely in the money, leaving a small tip is more than enough.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You are making it all too complicated, and one of your basic assumptions is off too.

Dealers, at least the ones here in vegas, make a lot more than $30,000, and they damn well should too. You can't imagine all the crap you have to put up with while dealing, but it's worth it only because the money is good. If I wanted to make a lousy $30K a year I could go back to being an underpaid and underappreciated scientist again.

In addition, non-dealers have NO IDEA how difficult dealing really is.

If you think you should tip based on some theoretical amount that a dealer SHOULD make, and you think that number is $30K, then you're either a cheapskate, or more likely, you have no idea what it's like to be a dealer. I'd NEVER deal for $30K a year, EVER.

In small tournaments, 5-10% is reasonable. In larger ones, the percentage can be less. You SHOULD also tip based on the overall quality of dealers during the tournament, and tip more for good ones, less for bad ones.

What the dealers really want is a reasonable amount of money per DOWN that they work in a tournament. For a really large tournament like the WSOP, that money should be VERY good. For smaller ones, like a daily $50 tournament, as long as we make $10 a down, we'd be happy. Note that for many small daily type tournaments, the dealers WON'T make $10 a down, even with any "dealer add-on" money, unless the winners throw down some tips.

Remember, in order to deal tournaments, dealers must give up dealing in ring games, where they get tokes that are immediately cashable. Dealers don't get anything for dealing tournaments unless:

A) there is specific money taken from the prize pool in either a percentage format (common in larger tournaments) or some sort of dealer add-on (common in smaller tournaments). or,

B) the winners tip.

Most of the time, even with specific $$ set aside for the dealers, the dealers only make decent money if the players tip. 5-10% is great if you prize is small, but let's face it, it's way too high if you just won a million dollars*. Therefore you should tip according to the level of service you recieved, and the size of the prize you win.

al

* I hear that Greg Raymer got criticized because he "only" tipped $40K after he won (I HEAR this, I don't know it to be a fact). Well gee, I would have probably tipped about 50K if it were me, so I don't think any such criticisms of him are all that warranted. And remember, I AM a dealer. The dealer money / down in the WSOP is VERY good, so perhaps someone should just quit their bitching and go cash their fat checks already.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
You are making it all too complicated, and one of your basic assumptions is off too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.
From a limit player's perspective, lived 01-02 in LV and currently in San Jose, Ca.

Local casino, Bay 101. Dealers deal half-hour downs. Usually 3 tables then a break. Works out to 6 hrs dealing per shift. With the shuffle machines, they average (or the management will get on their case) 20 hands per down or 40 per hour ( omaha and stud not included). That is 240 hands a day. With an average tip of $1 a pot, that is $240 plus their $50 wages and benefits. They then have to kick-back a set amount (neighborhood of $20) to the floor staff/chip runners. Even at the low end, net $200 a day, or $50K a year.

Tournaments:
5 days a week, mornings. Usually around 100 entrants. Limit or spread limit (No Limit not allowed in San Jose except I think 2 tourneys per club per year). $40+10 $20RB , $60+10 $60RB(1), etc
Dealer gets $10 for the first tourney table they deal. $15 for any after that. If they deal one hand to a tourney table that breaks, that still counts. If the house then spreads a live game and the dealer makes more tokes, double-dipping.

From talking to the dealers, the upcoming WPT events pay even better than the live games, ie they expect to make at least $20 a down or $40 an hr.

[BoxTree]

Thanks to everyone for their comments.

[ QUOTE ]
non-dealers have NO IDEA how difficult dealing really is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a non-dealer. I have no idea how difficult it is.

[ QUOTE ]
You SHOULD also tip based on the overall quality of dealers during the tournament, and tip more for good ones, less for bad ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there anyway to tip different dealers different amounts?

[Trainwreck]

Good post AL!

I did my own math on a WSOP win tip and I woulda tipped 18G's, so Greg was more than fine in my eyes.

I still love this one dealer (cranky middle aged lady) who came from previous table and whined about how bad her tips were to US! IQ of a dead squirrel move?

But all in all, 75% of dealers I run into are good/excellent. 10% you wonder which manager they are sleeping with, and the other 15% are just passable. 8)

>TW<

[Trainwreck]

In tournaments, NO, in most places in cash games, yes, unless they pool their tips like the pits games tend to do, which I am not aware of one doing it, that way, at their poker room.
If they do, it sucks for the dealers... and no one will want to deal there, except to get foot in the door... I think pooled $ was going on at Foxwoods.

>TW<