The possibility of a no rake site that actually works

[Greg J]

I cut my teeth playing .02/.04 and .05/.1 nano limits. Good times -- weak opponents and winrates of 5+ bb/100. "But that sort of wintate is not sustainable even against those drunken monkeys at nano poker." Yeah it is... because I didn't pay rake at that limit.

So Zerorake is dead (or nearly so). Good riddance most of us say. And hey, I don't disagree. Dutch messed over a lot of people, and my money didn't have a Buddhist's chance in heaven of being in that site. But the idea of paying no rake makes me salivate.

So, what can be done? Proping some might say. Be a prop Greg! I might consider that in the future, but right now my SH game sucks big sweaty donkey balls. (Which is why, despite being a fair tournament player, I can never do better than second or third -- but that is another story). I want a site where I don't pay rake. Come on free market capitalism... give me something here!

So, is it possible to have a site where the player does not pay rake? I kind of doubt it, but I'm not certain. The thing is this: Zerorake's charging a monthly fee, while ostensibly a good idea, is not marketable. We 2+2ers know this is great on the bankroll. Even as a micro player, the $40 I would pay to play for a month at Zerorake is nothing compared to the rake I pay at Party/skins. It still amounts to about 2 bb/100 hands that reflects my outplaying my opponents.

The problem with the charge is the average recreational player who does not know much about poker wants to play for "free" at Party, Paradise, PS. Why pay to play -- that's just silly! They don't consider the true impact of rake -- hell many of them don't know what rake is! (I've had to explain it to my brother in law like 5 times.) Unfortunately most consumers are not rational fully informed actors (appologies to all you guys with an economic bent -- but you know it's true! Read Herbert Simon.).

So, how do we get a no rake concept that actually works? How about some kind of advertising? It would have lots of logos, on the tables, on the shirts and hats of the avatar "players," banners running across the screen, and (unfortunately, but probably necessary) the occasional pop up.

This is probably a pipe dream of mine... but I thought if a no rake concept would ever work this would be how it was done. The advertising campaign could be something like "Other poker sites charge you to play -- we don't!" or something simple like that. But that is off topic somewhat. Forget the advertising... is it possible to have a no rake site that works? I am still skeptical, but hopeful all the same.

[Art Vandelay]

If something like this were to work, you'd have to lay the hard numbers out for the fish to hopefully read. 2+2ers understand rake and it's impact, but as you say the average fish doesn't. I'd have something like a rake calculator on the website. You input your limit, the number of hands you play, and the calculator tells you how much rake you are paying.

Ignorance is the biggest hurdle for a rake free site IMO. Right now the only people that would sign up would be a bunch of 2+2ers. We need some fishies to come populate the rake free pond as well.

[playersare]

do you exhaust every single bonus and reload opportunity available to you every month? I am rarely in a situation where I am not getting paid 10-20 cents for each and every raked hand that I play online.

after that, rakeback is worth approximately 0.5-1.0 BB/100 in the long run, which should be enough to keep even a mediocre high volume player afloat.

the sites need revenue to stay in business and provide you with the service, let all the other dummy players fund their operation.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
If something like this were to work, you'd have to lay the hard numbers out for the fish to hopefully read. 2+2ers understand rake and it's impact, but as you say the average fish doesn't. I'd have something like a rake calculator on the website. You input your limit, the number of hands you play, and the calculator tells you how much rake you are paying.

Ignorance is the biggest hurdle for a rake free site IMO. Right now the only people that would sign up would be a bunch of 2+2ers. We need some fishies to come populate the rake free pond as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. That was part of my marketing caveate. It would have to be clever and catchy -- something that emphasized "stop being screwed at you poker site." Another hurdle would be general economics. I'm not sure the advertising would be enough to pay, or that someone would be willing to invest the huge amount of capital that would be necessary to get such a project off the ground.

[BlueBear]

Fishies will never understand the concept of "no-rake" even if it's cheaper in the long run.

Just imagine if the rake was abolished in a normal casino, and instead they are asked to pay via an hour rate, say $20 per hour in a 5/10 game. There will be endless whining.

Keep the fishies happy, they are happy as long the charges they are paying is unseen and unfelt!

[phillydilly]

Having seen the stupid amounts of rake i've paid in the last few months, and I'm sure its less than a lot of other people, and i've thought about this also.

it seems the only way this would work is to have both. A rakefree system, and a raked system.

when a player signs up, they choose
A) i'd like to play for "free" and just have my pots raked
B) i'd like to have x subtracted from my account at the beginning of each month, and at the end of each month i will be refunded the rake taken out of my pots

There would probably be some horrid logistical concerns, but i'd imagine this would be the only way to pay no rake, and still have fishies

as i said, logistics would be a nightmare, obviously x isn't the same for joe 1 tabling at .5/1, me 4 tabling at 2/4 and moe 8 tabling at 15/30

Also, if i'm running the site, the last thing i want for 8 tabling 15/30 moe to get a giant discount on his rake.

I dunno, my simple little thoughts

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
Fishies will never understand the concept of "no-rake" even if it's cheaper in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope you are wrong. I wish you were. Unfortunately, I think you are right. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Greg J]

I like that option idea. A lot. Existing sites could even apply that... if they wanted to. Unfortunatley, why would they want to? It would only cost them less. Why would Party let me off the hook for say $50 a month when they get four times that from me in rake?

Still, nice thought. Good idea!

[TMFS9]

Why all or nothing, what about a discounted rake. You would just need to find other sources of income to account for loss revenues. Also I would not be surprised that in the future of online poker there is a rake war.

[BlueBear]

The fishies won't even notice a reduced rake.

If there is anything the poker room is considering, it is an INCREASE in rake.