Pot odds with overs?

[pshabi]

I hold two over cards to a rainbow flop.

Someone bets in front of me.

Assuming pairing one of my overs gives me the best hand I need pot odds of x:1 to continue with the hand.

x = ?

Let's not worry about the raise for a free card or call factor here.

Trying to prove a point to someone who doesn't believe me.

[djr]

you have 6 outs. Which is roughly 7:1 odds of hitting your pair on the turn. So x=7 if you think you'll only win if you hit your card. (x=7 to see one more card, x=4.5 to see both).

[flair1239]

It varies. By your position, what type of overs that you hold, what the pf action was and how many players you are against.

With AK heads up on a completely uncoordinated flop, if for some reason I thought I was behind to the bettor, I would probably be tempted to assume 5 outs, meaning I would need around 8-1 (with no backdoor draws).

Against 4-5 people with a hand like JT and the same flop (again assuming no backdoor draws), I probably would give myself even less than the SSH recommended 1.5 outs per card.

[pshabi]

Great.

So, let say I'm getting 5:1 to call the flop with overs. I don't hit on the turn. I need 7:1 to make another call on the turn for this to be profittable right?

Therefore, theoretically, you could justifiably call the flop and then fold to a bet on the turn because you no longer have the odds to justify a call?

Thanks for your responses.

[pshabi]

I'd love to see someone respond to my post just above this one!

Thanks.

[MercTec]

Yes

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
So, let say I'm getting 5:1 to call the flop with overs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're getting 5:1 on the flop, you don't have the odds to call a flop bet. If you're using the odds to draw to an over on the turn and the river (i.e., more than one card), then you need to account for the turn bet you'll most likely have to put in when you miss the turn. If you're getting 5:1 on the flop taking into account a turn bet, you almost certainly have 7:1 on just the flop call.

I don't understand your example.

[MercTec]

I think hes basically asking, just cuz i have odds to call on the flop, does it mean i have odds to call on the turn?

So if you have 6 outs on the flop, you need to be getting around 7 to 1 to call a bet....that translates into about 4 or 5 to 1 on the turn, depending on how many players are in the pot...so you cant call.

Its a poorly worded example, but i think thats the gist of what he was asking.

[threeonefour]

First of all, if you have two over cards with no backdoor draws you do not have 6 outs. failing to discount your outs can lead to a lot of bad calls. I would say that two over cards on an uncoordinated board typically count as 3-5 outs. I usually start at 5 outs and knock some off if the board is at all coordinated or if one of my cards is an A or K.

Another thing I that needs to be stressed is implied pot odds. On a small stakes table, if you need 8 to 1 to be making money on a call but you are only being offered 6 to 1 on the flop it is usually wrong to fold. you implied odds easily fill that gap.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
I think hes basically asking, just cuz i have odds to call on the flop, does it mean i have odds to call on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. Ok then. I concur. You will frequently (frequently!) have the odds to peel one more card on the flop, but not to peel a second card on the turn.