Out of position against a Tazz with QJs

[bernie]

UB 2-4

Typical somewhat aggressive table.

I limp UTG+1 with QJs, 3 folds later, tazz raises on cue. CO coldcalls, BB (somewhat tighter player)calls.

Flop: 8 9 3 rainbow. 1 of my suit.

I bet, tazz, on cue, raises, CO coldcalls which can mean 2 overcards. BB folds, I call.

Turn: Qos

I bet, tazz raises, CO finally gets solvent for the glue on his hands and folds, I call intending to bet on the river.

River: J

I bet, tazz raises, I call.

3 bet the river? 3 bet the turn? (I think I could've 3 bet the turn. Not sure if he'd have folded to a turn 3 bet. My goal was I wanted to keep him in as I figured I had him beat at this point. I wanted at least another bet from him. I don't want to take it down yet now that it's HU. Make sense? I think not 3 betting the river was questionable given my opponent.)

b

[Munga30]

Three bet the river, not the turn. Tazzes get big pairs sometimes, too. Against his range of hands, three betting the turn would not be good.

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
Three bet the river, not the turn. Tazzes get big pairs sometimes, too. Against his range of hands, three betting the turn would not be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're 3-betting with 4 to a straight there?

-d

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You're 3-betting with 4 to a straight there?


[/ QUOTE ]

Gutshot, not openended.

b

[bernie]

I think the better risk is 3 betting the river. If anything, because I don't want him to fold on the turn if I am ahead. The calling the raise then betting the river hopefully looks awkward to him. After all, If I can do that, why couldn't I 3 bet the turn and let him fold then?

Im not sure how much EV there would be on 3 betting the river over just calling his raise. Many LAGs tend to slowdown a bit after getting bet into this much. He may not have called the 3 bet on the river either. Which isn't necesarily a bad thing if he folds on the river. Much better there than for the 3 bet on the turn, imo.

b

[Munga30]

Well, assume your river three bet has a higher equity against his range of hands than does the turn three bet (because you improved to 2 pair, I'd say that's safe) and call the difference X. Then I think he would need to fold enough hands on the turn to give that three bet a folding equity of X + Y where Y represents his chances of sucking out on you on the river. Because *I* think it's unlikely that a Taz is folding that many more hands on the turn than on the river, I think the river three bet is better.

At least that's how I think you need to look at it. Interested in what you and others think about this.

[bernie]

I think the strength of you hand factors into the turn 3 bet also.

I think once they put in a river bet, they're likely to call another one since that closes the action on the hand.

The turn, they know they'll likely have to call another bet on the river, so if they don't have any real redraw, a 3 bet on the turn is usuallly a very strong hand. Even to most maniacs when they see a 3 bet against them on the turn will stop and think a moment. They are used to controling the action and most times when someone goes to war on the big streets that someone has a very strong hand. This is one reason many maniacs are decent hand readers.

Live, you can factor in more what he may think of your play because you can see his wheels turning. From prior hands, you'll know more about how he reacts when he tangles with you. Online, I've found that read a little tougher to come by.

The idea is not giving him the chance to fold on the turn if he has a small outer hand. You don't want him to fold. He's just paid 2 bets for his longshot if he has that. If he's ahead, then you're really glad you didn't 3 bet him since you'd have to call his cap then the extra bet on the river. I'd want a little better hand than just TPokK on the turn. Even though a tazz has a much wider range than normal for aggression, the range usually still narrows a bit as the hand goes further into the streets. He doesn't need much to still have me reasonably beat here.

I guess that would be a good question. How low of a hand would you go to war with with a typical maniac on the turn?

b