Yet another "I played AA bad" thread

[n1bd]

6-max 5/10 NL.

UTG folds, I raise to 30 (my standard raise) with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], the CO reraises to 90, I call. He started the hand with 1030; I have him covered.

195 in the pot. Flop comes 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I check, he bets 75, I minraise to 150, he calls.

495 in the pot. Turn is the (3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check, he bets 400, I check-raise him all in for 390 more.

My opponent is pretty solid, quiet preflop (28/7). I don't think I've seen him reraise preflop this session, but the table has been pretty passive preflop in general. I am probably seen as a little aggressive preflop (28/15) and a little weak-tight on later streets.


Now I am going to blab about my thought process, and I will throw out questions as I go along. Feel free to stop reading at any time.


Preflop, I think he has a premium hand, AA-JJ, AK, maybe TT.

The standard play with AA preflop would be to reraise, making it 250-300. The pot is already big and I would be happy to take it down now. I know my opponent has a hand he likes now, so I might have a better chance of getting him to commit money now rather than after a potentially scary flop. I am out of position, so I would like to reduce my opponent's positional advantage by reducing the absolute and relative number of dollars going in after the flop when I won't have the nuts anymore.

Instead I call. Given his preflop raising profile, I think he would have no problem laying down JJ and probably AK and QQ to a 200 reraise preflop. If I smooth call preflop, though, and I check the flop, then he bets and a pot-sized check-raise is about enough to put him in.

In the Ciaffone and Reuben book, Ciaffone lays out some criteria that he wants to satisfy before he will slowplay a big pair heads up preflop. In addition to a favorable chip situation (pot-sized raise all-in on the flop like I have), he requires position. Do you all agree with that requirement? If the action is going to end on the flop (either bet, raise all-in; or check, bet, check-raise all-in depending on who has position), then does position matter? I guess if the flop goes check check then the hand doesn't end there and I might have to "play poker", but at least in that case I have him on a narrow range of hands.

I think he will bet the flop almost every time after this preflop action, except maybe some of the time with AK (conveniently I don't worry about giving free cards to AK). I think this flop autobet compensates for any loss I take by failing to reraise preflop. The most obvious way I lose money by failing to reraise is when I double my opponent up when he flops a set. He flops a set/boat about 1/8.5 times, but I have 4 other board coards to hit a bigget set and win his stack. I will hit the overset about 17% of the time, so let's conservatively say his implied odds earn him 1/10 his stack preflop. So I lose around 100 right there by not reraising preflop. I might also lose some value from his hands that would put more money in preflop but won't put in any more after the flop, but those hands seem few (some % of his AK's maybe?). Maybe I lose another 30-50 on average from that. So I lose 130 preflop, but I can expect to make this back almost all the time from his flop bet, and some of the time I can expect to trap him for much more.

So, the question is, is it kosher to slowplay a big pair preflop out of position when the pot size is 20-25% of the money left to bet (obviously with the assumption that I will be willing to back the hand with all my little guys)? Is it kosher to do this 20% of the time? 50%?


On the flop, I didn't like his bet at all. From a pair or ace high I expected a 60-100%-pot bet or maybe a check, so I was leery of JJJ or maybe 999. (Indeed he had JJJ.) With these stack sizes, I didn't see a way to get enough information to consider getting away from my hand, though, so I played the rest of the hand to try to maximize when ahead and minimize when behind. Does anyone see a way to get away from this?

The minraise on the flop is a little fishy and debatable, but it can't be horrible as he has at most 2 outs if behind. I could probably get more value from smaller pairs by raising more, but I get more from AK by keeping it around with the minraise. My plan was to bet out ~75%-pot on the turn after the minraise. I felt that QQ/KK might read this line as a possible bluff (or something like T9s) and call.


When the K came on the turn, I changed my plan a little. I realized that my opponent was now 1:1 to have JJJ/KKK:AK. I knew that I wouldn't get more money from QQ, but I was worried that if I came out strong I might sometimes bet AK off his hand and only get called when beat. I thought AK was very likely to bet if checked to, though, since he wouldn't want to give a free card to a hand like pair + gutshot.

I think this reasoning is muddled. QQ and TT are 6-out hands with which my opponent would happily check the turn. It's better to bet out 50-100% of the pot to get TT/QQ to fold, and hopefully get some value from AK. Yeah, he might fold AK, but he might also call when he would've checked behind.

[LuvDemNutz]

I think the $400 turn bet by your opponent after having been checkraised on the flop should've told you, you were in trouble.

If he had AK I think there is a good chance he checks behind here on the turn. If I were him (and had AK), I think I would put YOU on QQ or JJ or maybe AJ - so if I'm him and holding AK I'm checking the turn.

[n1bd]

So you're saying, the way I got there, I should check-fold to his turn bet? Okay. I agree that is a big bet for AK.

If instead of checking I bet out, say, 300 on the turn, can I fold to his raise? It seems like I can't fold, since I'm getting like 3:1 he is 1:1 to have JJJ/KKK:AK.

[LuvDemNutz]

[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying, the way I got there, I should check-fold to his turn bet? Okay. I agree that is a big bet for AK.

If instead of checking I bet out, say, 300 on the turn, can I fold to his raise? It seems like I can't fold, since I'm getting like 3:1 he is 1:1 to have JJJ/KKK:AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'd say this is read dependent -

1)Has this player reraised PF with AK before (some do, some don't)?

2)Would he call the flop min-raise with just AK?

3)Is he aggressive enough to raise your turn lead with AK?

I'm not sure I agree with your idea that he's even odds to have JJ/KK and AK - his play and your reads might tell you otherwise.

[fireitup123]

"UTG folds, I raise to 30 (my standard raise) with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], the CO reraises to 90, I call. He started the hand with 1030; I have him covered.

195 in the pot. Flop comes 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I check, he bets 75, I minraise to 150, he calls.

495 in the pot. Turn is the (3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check, he bets 400, I check-raise him all in for 390 more."

The way you played preflop is one good way to play AA preflop. The preflop play was ok.

The flop, and the turn was bad I think. On the flop, I would have made a big raise (at least the pot).

The turn was another bad play I think. With the board that's out on the turn, the only hand you figure to be ahead of that your opponent might be likely to have would be Ace King. There is a jack and a king out. He could easily have JJ but more likely, KK. Generally solid type players make preflop reraises with AA and KK. His turn bet indicates that he is representing a big hand. I'm not sure why you didn't believe he had a big hand at that point. The King was a really bad card for you, as KK is his most likely hand that reraises your AA. A lot depends on your read of this player. Do you think he's likely to make a big turn bet w/o a big hand? I haven't played with him, so I would not know. Do you think he's likely to be reraising with QQ or JJ or AKing? Or other hands such as AQs, or 99?

I'm pretty tired but to summarize, the flop raise should have been much higher. I think a fold on the turn would have been a good play, after the mistake on the flop had been made. I don't know who won the hand or what happened after your allin, but I don't think it looks to good for you.

Another good way to play it is to make a big rerraise preflop with the AA. So much depends on the dynamics of the game and the player in the pot with you.

My 2 + 2 cents
Questions about this ? Let me know I will try to answer.

[n1bd]

[ QUOTE ]
1)Has this player reraised PF with AK before (some do, some don't)?

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This was the first time I'd seen him reraise preflop.

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2)Would he call the flop min-raise with just AK?

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I figured he would. ?? I dunno. I think it's just tough to fold when you're getting such good pot odds (like 5.5:1) after getting minraised when you're in position. But maybe I'm just projecting my own weaknesses onto this opponent: I don't like to fold a lot in the same round I make a bet when I have position.

[ QUOTE ]
3)Is he aggressive enough to raise your turn lead with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]
The pot is getting big at that point, so he is probably feeling committed to calling a big bet on the river anyway, so if he thinks I have a suited connector pair/straight draw type hand like T9 or 98 some of the time in this spot (which I do) he should just put it in on the turn. ?? I've only played with this player for about an hour, so I haven't seen him play many big pots, just one in which he put someone all in on the flop with an overpair after raising preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I agree with your idea that he's even odds to have JJ/KK and AK - his play and your reads might tell you otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree. I just meant that they are equally possible card-wise. If I bet out on the turn and he raises, I am getting 3:1, so I think the overlay makes up for the fact that he isn't playing AK like that all the time.