Re-raising non group 1 hand pre-flop

[woodguy]

Hello All,

When someone raises a PF raise most of us immediately put that player on a group 1 hand.

I have been playing around with doing this without a group 1 hand (but usually a decent holding) in some SnG's to see what the reaction is. (usually $50 or $100 SnGs)

I think the folding equity that you gain is worth the risk, and I have been thinking of adding it to my play in MTT's where I do not have a LAG image, and I have good position.

Something like this: (example from SnG)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter

UTG (t1205)
UTG+1 (t755)
MP1 (t305)
MP2 (t725)
MP3 (t920)
CO (t770)
Hero (t770)
SB (t1155)
BB (t1395)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls t120.

Flop: (t425) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t250</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: t675

Obviously this is a nice example because it worked.

It hasn't always, but it has worked enough to pique my interest.

Thoughts, comments, flames??

Regards,
Woodguy

[erfinator]

Hi Woodguy,
I've actually experimented with that concept as well (in cash games, sng's, and mtt's). While I find it to work well in cash games, I think it's a risky proposition in tournaments with such rapid blind structures, since a continuation bet on the flop will often force you to commit such a huge portion of your stack, and leave you in terrible shape if called by a better hand. Still, I think it could be useful in the later stages of mtts when people are trying to conserve chips.

[Sam T.]

Woodguy,

Interesting post. What range of hands you would do this with? 99 is no powerhouse, but could also come up huge. I assume you fold to a strong re-raise.

It does make post-flop play more interesting whether you flop your set or not. Do you drop this if the initial bettor opens with a 1/2-2/3 pot bet on the flop? What is your play if he check-calls your flop bet? I guess my question is how far are you willing to take your semi-bluff? (I know, I know: It depends...)

I also wonder how this would/will translate for the low buy-ing crowd...

Best,

Sam

[ZBTHorton]

It seems like to me this could get you in alot of trouble.

In that situation you described, obviously you got lucky in the fact that your opponent didn't have an ace.

Although in most tournaments I play, had he had even A2..he would have called you....and you would be doomed.

I think MAYBE this could be a play you could use at later stages..when the blinds are high...to make it worthwhile..but even still... how would you feel if you bubbled in a tournament when you tried to make a play with 9-9 on a board with two overs?

[jackdaniels]

The key here is that villain is unlikely to raise with A2. Even more unlikely to call a re-raise with that hand. Once villain calls the re-raise it is prety easy to narrow his holdings (any pocket pair/any big Ace/suited broadway(maybe) - big pocket pairs prolly re-raise here). Once the Ace falls - he is folding everything but that big Ace (assuming no draw on board). And he will let you know if he has the Ace. Any call of a post flop bet should put you in check/fold mode. I've played with this myself a few times and it works enough (in early rounds, rather than late) - as people are willing to gamble and call raises with PP, suited connectors, etc.. and lay down to any show of strength on the flop - unless they hit ofcourse!

[hurlyburly]

Yeah, this is a great play for the higher buy-ins or late stages, as it masks your range so well (you'd probably make a mint checking a 9 high flop after representing such a strong hand), but at the sub-$50 buy-ins this is is a stack-chopper.

I'm loath to do it with a hand as good as 9-9 tho.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
In that situation you described, obviously you got lucky in the fact that your opponent didn't have an ace.


[/ QUOTE ]

My opponent said he had KK.

I agree that its risky, that's why I posted it, not sure how deep the stacks have to be to try this.

Being the big stack would help.

Regards,
Woodguy

[woodguy]

Hey Sam,

I don't know what hands I would do this with, I'm still playing around with it.

Definitely has to be something that can flop a big hand a couple different ways (over pair, set, OESD w/ flush etc)

As for low buy ins, I just play straight forward ABC, play my good hands, play around a little if its cheap and I'm LP etc.

I really like the extra folding equity the PF raise gives me. I think I'm a folding equity junkie.


Regards,
Woodguy

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Still, I think it could be useful in the later stages of mtts when people are trying to conserve chips.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly where I was thinking of using it.
Say a mid stack raises in LMP and I have position I want to re-pop.
AQ looks pretty weak when your PF raise gets raised.

Regards,
Woodguy

[MonkeeMan]

Sorry for such a newbie question, but what exactly is a group 1 hand? AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQs? How do they vary by position (as I assume they do)?