Am I stealing?

[chief444]

Party 2/4, no hand histories but here it is:

Hero is CO w/ AKo
SB is a known 2+2er and knows who I am as well,
MP3 is bad. Bad as in something like >50/7 bad.

Preflop:
Folded to MP3 who limps, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB and MP3 fold, I call.

Flop: J-T-x, two suits
SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: J-T-x-x, blank offsuit
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls

River: another blank, no flush
SB checks, Hero checks

Comments?

[27offsooot]

I assume u cap PF if MP3 or BB come along for the ride?
Otherwise, well played, a turn semi-bluff seems reasonable. I suppose that a river bet would only fold another AK, which wouldn't make it worthwhile. I don't get the post title though, wouldn't this better be titled, "Am i isolating a fish"?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume u cap PF if MP3 or BB come along for the ride?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
a turn semi-bluff seems reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]
That was my only question. I realized afterwards that a 3-bet would have given me a bit of a decision. Even if I didn't have the best hand, I probably had more than 4 outs.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the post title though, wouldn't this better be titled, "Am i isolating a fish"?

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess I was thinking of it from the SB's point of view.

[27offsooot]

The more i think about it, the less i like the turn. I think that the only hands u fold that u lose to are pps 99 and below. Any quasi-legitimate three-betting broadway hands have to see the river b/c they either have a gutshot or an OESD. Overpairs aren't folding and even a very suspect three betting hand like AJ will call down i would suspect. Obviously if the 2+2er puts u on a steal/ isolation play, his three betting standards are lower, but I suppose it would depend if he's willing to do this with enough low pocket pairs. Throw in the potential for a three-bet and I don't like it so much.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
The more i think about it, the less i like the turn. I think that the only hands u fold that u lose to are pps 99 and below. Any quasi-legitimate three-betting broadway hands have to see the river b/c they either have a gutshot or an OESD. Overpairs aren't folding and even a very suspect three betting hand like AJ will call down i would suspect. Obviously if the 2+2er puts u on a steal/ isolation play, his three betting standards are lower, but I suppose it would depend if he's willing to do this with enough low pocket pairs. Throw in the potential for a three-bet and I don't like it so much.

[/ QUOTE ]
The more I thought about it, the less I liked it too. That's why I posted it.

[billyjex]

Against a thinking player I kinda like the turn raise. You're not getting a hand like AK to fold the turn, but if you followed up the river with a bet, I can see a TAG folding AK and winning you the pot.

[Fat Nicky]

Everytime I see a post where the hand is a 2+2er against another 2+2er, there is always aggressive raising a re-raising with less than premium hands. I don't see any good reason for this.

In my experience when playing against 2+2ers and they also know i'm a 2+2er, I always get paid off on my big hands as they try to outplay me postflop.

Again, this is just what I have observed since joining these forums, I could be wrong and basing my observation on a small sample size [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[runa]

If we're assuming that any valid hand calls you down on that turn you're essentially risking 2BB to win a 6BB pot (is that about right?). You're giving him 8-1 on his turn call, which opens his calling range up to 5 outers+ which isn't great since he would be correct to call with any piece of the board with a small chance you are reverse dominated.

You might be better off raising the flop, since if you're 3-bet there you can slow down on the turn and drop UI on the river. If you're just called you can bet the turn if checked to with decent folding equity, or check behind for a free one.

If you're fairly certain this player won't give up so easily and is very likely to pull an SNG with just about any PP or piece of the board, then just calling down and fold river UI is probably best.

EDIT: for clarity

[BigEndian]

Without reading the other responses...

I like a flop raise and a checked turn with this kind of board. Variations from here depend on the player. A player on a draw is not very likely to bet the river unimproved and so you get showdown value as well.

Raising the turn is interesting if you think you can a) get an immediate fold or b) can get a fold with a bet on the river. But this costs you 2BB plus the call on the flop rather than the 2SB the above line costs.

If you just want a free showdown unimproved, raise the flop.

- Jim

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
Party 2/4, no hand histories but here it is:

Hero is CO w/ AKo
SB is a known 2+2er and knows who I am as well,
MP3 is bad. Bad as in something like >50/7 bad.

Preflop:
Folded to MP3 who limps, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB and MP3 fold, I call.

Flop: J-T-x, two suits
SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: J-T-x-x, blank offsuit
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls

River: another blank, no flush
SB checks, Hero checks

Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cap this pre-flop. If you don't he is gonna bet the flop and make your decisions harder even if you both miss the flop. Cappig probably lets you be the aggessor later and may give you nice choices with position, such as taking free cards.

I put him on a big ace, probably A-K but maybe A-Q, unless he's really tricky, and I bet the river to try and steal his half of the pot. If you get reraised though, you're gonna hate it so the check behind doesn't suck. Although he probably doesn't re-raise you here unless he has 2 pair or better. Or unless his name is Sfer.

--Zetack