Stupid Plays? Crazy people.... am I one of them?

[kurto]

I have two hands... both of which I won, but I'm wondering if I was a fool or was doing it right? NOTE: Both are tables with LAG players. I'm pretty sure I'm the only rock at these tables...

I'm in first round at a .05/.10 NL table. I have folded my way to now and have no reads on the table yet. Now, UTG+2, I'm dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

There's 2 limpers before me, and I raise to .60 (6xbb). 4-5 callers after me including the original limper.

I remark, "Wow, loose table."

(~$4) FLOP- 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

The BB bets $.70, UTG+1 calls, I raise it to $3... and 3 people after me call as well as the BB and UTG+1. I'm thinking I might be screwed.

TURN Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Even scarier... because any 10 has me beat, plenty of 2 pair possibilities and of course a flush draw made it.

The first 2 check to me... I'm being stubborn, I have the back door flush possibility... there's already a possible straight and flush on the table... But I feel a semi-bluff is still in order... so I bet... $5. I get 3 callers (2 people are all in at this point).

THE RIVER 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I made my flush. There are two cards out there that can have me beat,.. but not likely. I go all in to build a sidepot with the one remaining guy. He folds.

I win the pot. No one else shows.
-----------------------------------------

ANOTHER TABLE I'M At... I'm in the cutoff with Pocket Ks. I have about $23... I am the big stack at the table.

An EP person does a minraise to .20--- 3-4 callers, I raise to .80... folds to BB who raises to $1.20... the initial EP min-raiser (who only has about $3) goes all in... 1 caller before me, I call and the BB calls.

4 people to the flop with over $12 in the pot.

FLOP
8-10-J (2 hearts - of which I have none)

The BB bets $1. The MP calls, I raise to $5... the BB goes all in (about $1 more then my bet) the MP calls... and I call.

TURN Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8-10-J) (3 to a flush now)

Again... I'm thinking I'm screwed. that's gotta have made someone a straight, 2 pair or a flush. Now the MP goes all in for another $2-3. I of course can't fold for $2 more. So... now there are 3 people all in and all I have is an overpair... an openended flush draw which may be drawing dead to a flush.

The River- A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]( Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Jx) 4 HEARTS on the board. I have NONE.

I take down the pot with my straight. Not even a split pot.

I don't know what the heck these people had in either hand. And I don't know if I should have been out of these hands earlier and I lucked out. Or if these people were just so LAGGY that I was ahead the whole time? Are they crazy or me?

Thoughts?

[miajag81]

[ QUOTE ]

I remark, "Wow, loose table."


[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't do that.

[kurto]

"Please don't do that."

I don't advise people to play better. I thought in this case I was just stating the obvious.

[kurto]

So... No thoughts on the play? Was this played poorly and I lucked out? Standard?

[NiceCatch]

Hmmmm, I think you lucked out later in the hand both times, in that on the first hand, you drew to your diamonds (You were a decent underdog going to the river... don't quite understand the bet of $5 on the turn. In theory you had 8 outs, but you can almost be sure there were diamonds out there, and you probably outdrew SOMEONE; your $5 bet is not scaring anyone out of the pot, obviously not the flush, probably not the 10. If you MUST hold on to the hand with the naked A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], then just call any turn bets). In the second hand, you're four-handed, so the chances someone else would have any heart are pretty good. So I guess you got lucky again. (Obviously, a split is unlikely because you had two of the Kings.)

The big flaw I see in your play early is you don't raise enough with your premium hands. You DO NOT want to be playing KK four-handed (I prefer one opponent, or two at most). You DO NOT want to be playing AA six-handed. Raise more to flush people out. If a 3-4xBB raise pre-flop is not working, RAISE MORE. It sounds like at least one LAG would've called behind your raise, so you'd still get paid off, with less risk. With AA and KK, you want to get all-in BEFORE the flop, when you are at a big advantage (especially with this type of action).

You won both hands, but in the long term, especially with those boards, I'd imagine the -EV would be fairly substantial against you.

-NC

[NiceCatch]

[ QUOTE ]
The big flaw I see in your play early is you don't raise enough with your premium hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
In case it wasn't clear from the rest of my post, I meant you don't raise enough PRE-FLOP. If you do go all-in before the flop with either hand and get a bunch of callers, at least they're paying to outdraw you when you are at an advantage. Another flaw I noticed is that you only called the raise of $1 on the flop in the second hand. With that type of board, once again the only play (if you don't read two-pair or a set, which with this crew seems unlikely) is to raise all-in. You have an overpair against a reasonably non-threatening board against weak competition; what is the point of calling $1? Don't let them draw cheaply. If it's getting action you're worried about... well, it looks like you would have gotten plenty no matter how you played it.

-NC

[kurto]

"The big flaw I see in your play early is you don't raise enough with your premium hands."

I had been multitabling all night and on one of my other talbes, after tripling my stack, I was raising 3x the BB and 90% everyone was folding. So, seeing 6 people call my raise of 6x the BB was a shock. (my standard raise is 4x the bb unless there's too many limpers and I want to narrow the field) If I knew they were that loose, I would certainly have raised more.

I don't do the all-in bet preflop with aces unless I'm reraised. I sit down with maximum buyin, most people don't. If I go all in, most of the time everyone just folds. I've been practicing to see what kind of raise I can make and get a little action. I thought my 6xbb raise would normally reduce callers.

"You won both hands, but in the long term, especially with those boards, I'd imagine the -EV would be fairly substantial against you." I do think I lucked out in each case. The only thing that makes me wonder is... the people are often SOOOO bad at these tables. Like: I've raised with pocket Aces... people call with 4-10 suited, pair the 4, and reraise my flop bet. They go all the way to showdown somehow thinking the 4s are going to take it.

Against 'good' players, I think I would definitely have been out of there. But these Lagy maniacs... who the heck knows what they had? The Flush one I'm really shocked that noone had a heart. But since none of them had a flush, what the heck were they betting on? Bottom pair? Sucker straight? Low PPs? I'm sure I outdrew 1 or 2 people each hand... but in each case, there were multiple people going all in... it would seem their draws made it, and yet I won. I know I'm babbling, I'm just so perplexed by their plays.... (what the heck were they calling my preflop raise with... and all of them thought they hit the flop... draws made it none of which they had?!?!)

I'll stop babbling.

[NiceCatch]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just so perplexed by their plays.... (what the heck were they calling my preflop raise with... and all of them thought they hit the flop... draws made it none of which they had?!?!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's talk strategy then. Assuming there's no accounting for their play, you need to play correctly then, and not worry about their hands so much. So what is the most profitable play? Straightforward tight aggressive poker. The reason to overbet the pot with a good hand on the flop is two-fold; to remove the odds to draw for good players, and to not give a good price to bad players who will draw anyways. You don't need to worry about slowplaying; you'll probably be paid off. Slowplaying at these tables is just unnecessary. IF at some point these maniacs realize that you are a rock, you can switch up your play. But at the point at which you got KK, they were still ready to pay you off. (I'm going to ignore the first hand, since you had no read; I would have been just as shocked as you in that position. I might have potted it on the flop, or overbet... say $5 or $6.) On the flop with your KK, betting $5 gives too good a price on a $12 pot... very few draws don't get odds, especially with the calling that's going on. Calling the $1 re-raise gives odds to just about all possible hands.

So on the second hand, on the flop, I would have bet in the $10-$15 range straight up. Or you could just go all-in. I would be happy with a $12 pot with my kings.

But... it seems from your post that you know all this. Maybe you just didn't apply it??

-NC

[kurto]

"You don't need to worry about slowplaying;" The funny think is very often I'm NOT slowplaying. At a .10bet table, where most people have less then the max buyin, A bet of a dollar postflop scares away 90% of all people. Something was in the air last night. lol I was winning $20 pots which at these tables, is pretty rare. Usual pots at these tables are 2-4 dollars.

"I might have potted it on the flop, or overbet... say $5 or $6.) " I hear ya. Usually, NO ONE calls those kinds of bets because half the time, that's their entire stack. So often at these tables, no one ever bets more then .50 regardless of the pot-size unless they have the nuts on the river. It's like they're all playing limit hold em.

"But... it seems from your post that you know all this. Maybe you just didn't apply it??" I think my confusion comes from their play. Usually, the players at these tables are not that aggressive (except for the occasional maniac) and don't think in terms of 'pot sized bets' and such... There's weird habits like, they will call a 3xbb preflop with nothing, but if you bet 5xbb - the whole table folds. I was thrown off by the amount of action I was getting with my bets AND the fact that none of them were folding (I could be pretty sure in each case, that half the people calling had no business calling preflop... and it would seem most had no business being in the hand post flop since they had none of the obvious draws...)

I guess what I'm saying is... usually they're so readable. And I have no idea what these guys were playing.