How do I protect my hand here?

genya · #1 01-26-2005, 01:07 AM

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

River: (5.70 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.70 BB

I tried to check raise the turn but it backfired. How can I protect my hand against draws when this happens?

Aaron W. · #2 01-26-2005, 01:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I tried to check raise the turn but it backfired. How can I protect my hand against draws when this happens?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you wanted to check-raise, you should have check-raised the flop. If the table is passive (as it seems to be), you shouldn't even try for the check-raise.

If you were trying to protect against the flush and OESD, you can't. They're going to have odds to try to chase you down. The best you can do is to bet and hope the draw doesn't come in.

TALLBrad · #3 01-26-2005, 01:33 AM

I think the best you could do is value bet. Even if on the FLOP had CO bet and you raised the 2 flush would still be correct to call 2 bets cold due to pot size.

On the turn you were in a similar situation, although the implied odds weren't as great. Even if you did manage the check raise the Pot was large enough to justify calling 2 cold with Flush or OES draws.

genya · #4 01-26-2005, 01:36 AM

should i check the river in that case to save a bet in the event that someone caught the straight?

OrianasDaad · #5 01-26-2005, 01:38 AM

I prefer checking this flop. If you get even one caller, they are getting almost enough to call with an OESD, and are getting just barely enough to call with a flush draw (on the turn).

If you check, here are the good things that can happen:
- A late position player could bet, and now you can check-raise to protect.
- It could get checked through, and you can hope for a blank. A bet will have much more force on the turn if there is no flop action.
- Everyone could fold. Unlikely, but still within the realms of possibility. EDIT: WHAT WAS I THINKING WITH THIS?

The bad thing could happen here is that UTG could bet. You've got no fold-equity with a bettor to your left, unless you think he's capable of 3-betting your check-raise and forcing any limpers between him and you out.

This looks like a case of "Passing up a flop edge, because your edge on the turn will be larger."

cold_cash · #6 01-26-2005, 01:39 AM

If you don't know where a bet is going to come from, or if one is going to come at all, check-raising loses most of it's luster.

Also, take into account the size of the pot when you're in a spot like this. Betting out will force gut-shots to make a bad call, and that's pretty much the only draw it's possible to protect your hand from.

Almost everyone with a stronger draw will be able call profitably; it would be nice to force those people into a lose-lose situation, but if you try to do that you run the risk of giving them infinite odds when it gets checked around.

In other words, cross your fingers and bet the turn.

TALLBrad · #7 01-26-2005, 01:41 AM

As passive as everybody was on the turn it's a good value bet. The board is not too coordinated and unless somebody else got a two pair the only hands that beat you are 97 or Q9. If you got beat you got beat, otherwise remember that if you have top pair or two pair and nobody is raising you then go ahead and make a value bet.

genya · #8 01-26-2005, 01:54 AM

well, as a result I was beat by a Q9. Is checking the river better in this case than a bet?

cold_cash · #9 01-26-2005, 01:59 AM

Look back at this hand if you had played it that way.

You flop two-pair, bet the flop, check the turn and have it checked around, then check and call the river because someone might have rivered a gut-shot?

Bleh. That's not the way to win the big money.

Bet the turn and river.

If you'd bet the turn, UTG+1 would have been making a mistake by calling. Your bet would have protected your hand. You still would have lost, but you would have played your hand correctly and made a few Sklansky bucks.

TALLBrad · #10 01-26-2005, 02:15 AM

I assumed that the q9 was unsooted, and ran some calcs. You were behind before the flop, but on the flop and turn a big favorite. The gut shot hit and he won. That happens and there isn't much you could do, other than put people to decisions. If you had bet the turn do you think this guy would have figured his 4 outs were worth calling?

528 games 0.005 secs 105,600 games/sec

Board: Td 8c 4c 3d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 90.9091 % [ 00.91 00.00 ] { 8s4h }
Hand 2: 09.0909 % [ 00.09 00.00 ] { Q9o }

---

11,880 games 0.015 secs 792,000 games/sec

Board: Td 8c 4c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 77.7778 % [ 00.78 00.00 ] { 8s4h }
Hand 2: 22.2222 % [ 00.22 00.00 ] { Q9o }

---

20,547,648 games 0.094 secs 218,592,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 32.7846 % [ 00.32 00.00 ] { 8s4h }
Hand 2: 67.2154 % [ 00.67 00.00 ] { Q9o }