80/160 Live

Schneids · #1 01-10-2005, 05:47 PM

Here's a situation that came up while I was playing Bellagio 80/160 a few days ago that has got me thinking about poker in a more general sense. Full table, might be one other player gone.

Loose passive bad playing Asian woman is back from her dinner break and posts UTG. No waiting for her.

Folded to young Asian guy on the button. He hasn't been playing at the table long but from what I gather is a regular in the game since he is talking a lot with two other guys at the table who I know to be regulars. I think he plays pretty well. Anyway, button raises.

I'm in the SB and I call. Both the BB and UTG call as well. BB is one of the aforementioned regulars, who also plays quite well.

Flop QJ5 two clubs. I don't recall which wasn't the club.

Checked to the button who bets. I check raise. Folded around to the button who 3 bets. I call.

Turn a queen that isn't a club.

I check, button bets.

Since the button is unfamiliar with me and may assume I am a tourist type should I again be checkraising on the turn, no matter what my cards are and what I checkraised the flop with? Does the answer change if I'm playing against an opponent who is familiar with my play and recognizes me as a TAG? Or is this a situation where it's very likely he should expect to be checkraised again and will therefore only bet the turn when he's v. willing to 3-bet?

jetsonsdogcanfly · #2 01-10-2005, 05:51 PM

i would say you are missing about an infinity of +EV bets here. you should probably double check raise the turn, and plan on triple raising sixth street...

what i'm saying is it would help if we knew your cards.

Schneids · #3 01-10-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i would say you are missing about an infinity of +EV bets here. you should probably double check raise the turn, and plan on triple raising sixth street...

what i'm saying is it would help if we knew your cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I really don't think my cards matter in this spot. My cards were good enough to checkraise the flop with. Sometimes it'll be a queen, sometimes a jack, and sometimes a draw.

Danenania · #4 01-10-2005, 06:21 PM

"Or is this a situation where it's very likely he should expect to be checkraised again and will therefore only bet the turn when he's v. willing to 3-bet?"

This sounds most likely to me. I think I like calling the turn bet with all possible hands (besides QJ), then calling the river with all made hands since he will always be value betting, sometimes with a worse hand.

If you have a draw and it comes in the river could be tricky. Especially if you have KT and the A hits. I guess my plan for a straight would be to bet-call an A and checkraise a 9. For a flush I would checkraise on low clubs and bet-call an Ac or Kc.

Paluka · #5 01-10-2005, 06:22 PM

Are we hoping for him to fold or are we hoping for him to call?

jetsonsdogcanfly · #6 01-10-2005, 06:32 PM

I actually really like this post, but I feel like your line depends very much on your holding. The post as getting at some pretty complicated level-of-thinking issues, which are pretty impossible to answer without cards.

[ QUOTE ]
Or is this a situation where it's very likely he should expect to be checkraised again and will therefore only bet the turn when he's v. willing to 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a situation where he will expect to be checkraised. Nor will he be excited to three bet without at least trips.

With that flop, he would likely expect a TAG to lead the turn with a queen. A TAG with a queen would be likely to think that the button would like a free card on the turn. So when checked to, the button may think "he probably doens't have a queen, and instead of peeling one off I can now represent the Q easily."

Against a tourist, he may be more likely to expect a c/r on the turn. But at the same time, he may also be more willing to value bet his two pair.

Gabe · #7 01-10-2005, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since the button is unfamiliar with me and may assume I am a tourist type should I again be checkraising on the turn, no matter what my cards are and what I checkraised the flop with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that you can assume that he will assume you are a tourist type.

Blackjack · #8 01-10-2005, 06:47 PM

I think your cards hold some importance here.

I know it's not the question you are asking exactly but what did you have?

Blackjack

Schneids · #9 01-10-2005, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think your cards hold some importance here.

I know it's not the question you are asking exactly but what did you have?

Blackjack

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets say in situation:

A) I have KT or club draw.
B) KQ/AQ
C) AJ/KJ

I think any of these three sets of hands are plausible possibilities. The question is whether it matters which set of hands I hold and whether all of them should be played with a turn check raise again.

TStoneMBD · #10 01-10-2005, 08:06 PM

i am not close to playing this high, so im not sure what the button is capable of thinking. my personal opinion however is that he will be inclined to call down if you checkraise the turn. i think against unknowns he will have trouble folding his big pair. if my calculations are correct however, there should be 8 BBs in the pot after he bets the turn. your checkraise should take down the pot 1:8 when on your draw. the problem with this line of thinking however is that you will be 3 bet a certain % of the time and you may have to follow up with a bet on the river. if you follow up with a bet on the river your losing another 4/5ths BB making your odds of getting him to fold a little better than 4:1. factor in the times youll be 3bet on the turn and i think checkraising a draw here isnt very profitable. i would call down with AJ and FD, while cr a Q.