TStone 1-2NL Trip Report (1/1 - 1/3)

[PokerFink]

Warning: Long post and potentially useless information.

Just got back tonight from a profitable and very fun 3 days at the stone. I put in a late Saturday session, an afternoon and an evening session Sunday, and an afternoon session Monday. Finished up every session and never busted. Up $700 for the three days.

I see a lot of questions about this 1-2NL game on this forum, so I'm going to cover some trends that I have found playing this game, as well as go over a couple major hands. This will probably be a long post, but hopefully it will be informative. This was my 4th trip in the last year (my only B&M experience) and I have done increasingly better with each trip.

*** Nearly all the players fall into one of four major categories. ***

1) Tight Winners: The easiest way to beat this game is to play very tight and pick your spots very, very carefully. This is how I play. Raise PF with JJ-AA & AK only. Limp with all other pairs and playable hands (ie AJ). Limp with suited connects from LP only. Limp more from LP and use this advantage. The key to winning this way is NOT to play hands like AJ for a raise, especially calling it. Don't bluff much (if at all), protect your big hands, don't go crazy betting top pair, and put in good value bets when heads up because people call heads up bets a lot. Basically, if you find a good player like this at your table, stay away from them, because once you get the discipline to beat the game this way, it becomes hard to get money from these players (see: I didn't bust in 3 days). A smart type 1 player understands that TPTK and even two pairs looses big pots, so they don't get all their money in w/o a real monster. There's 7 or 8 other losing players to take money from, so why bother with type 1 players.

2) Loose Winners: This is a phenomenon that I'm starting to understand more. You see players with $400+ stacks in this game that don't seem to have much of a clue. Their bet sizes don't make any sense, they play too many hands and they win their pots by sucking out. But they win... and I see these players winning often, though not as consistantly as type 1. The key is they beat up on the next type of player. Look out for big bets and raises from these players. They often bluff by betting small, but when the money goes in, they generally have the best of it. They will drag a huge pot with two pairs and you go "wow, how lucky to hit that six on the river to make kings and sixes and win that big pot!" but the key is that 80% of the money went in on the river when they had the best hand, not the turn against the poor sap with AK. If the six hadn't fallen, they wouldent have put the money in. This is why this type of player can win. Table image baby! To beat them, just focus on outkicking them in the small pots and making smart value bets. Take them down bit by bit. Don't play big pots without a monster hand, because they WILL have that J7 straight to beat your two pairs. Big pots are best played against the...

3) The Tight Looser: There are tons of these players. Many are college kids that win in their little college home games or play online and they think they know what they're doing, but the truth is that they don't understand big bet poker at all. They play KJ or 55 for a raise and muck on the flop win they miss, and they do stuff like that constantly, which is why can't slowly build like type 1 players (the key to NL). They don't play aggressivly enough, so they don't create action. Their biggest problem is getting married to hands. Type 3 players get torn apart by type 2 players, and then complain because "he played K6 for a raise against my AK and rivered two pair!" Well, sure, but did you have to call his seventy dollar raise with a pair on the river?! I've seen these players min raise on the river with a straight, then call a huge re-raise only to be shown an obvious full house. These players do not understand how to play big pots, and so they end up busting in one hand. They play far too straightfoward and are unimaginative. Stay away from their small value bets with moderate hands, and don't be afraid to overbet when you spike something big, because they interpret big bets as bluffs and will pay you off. These are the players to play big pots against, because they play big pots with stuff like JJ and and TPTK that are sure to lose big pots. In my opinion, spotting these players and distinguishing them from type 1 players (and playing accordingly) is the KEY to beating this game.

Note: A lot of regulars fall into this category. Your first impression will be that they know what they're doing, but there are many tight regular players that are far worse than they seem to be. Distinguishing the regulars as well as the college kids into types 1 and 3 is critical.

4) The Total Fish: Generally by their third buy-in you should know who this is. Don't let variance put you on tilt, and enjoy the free benjamins. DON'T confuse these players with type 2 players. If the money goes in and a fish has the best of it after the money goes in and not before, a warning bell should go off that your first impression might have been wrong... and they might know what they are doing after all.

Quote from another thread: "I've read a study that determined most people are unable to raise what turns out to be a wrong first impression..." Don't make this mistake. A player may seem like a fish because he has a $500 stack and your seat neighbor says "oh yeah, he rivered a couple big hands." But keep in mind that some players that seem like fish are just waiting to take someone in a big pot with a goofball hand. Don't make the mistake of underestimating these type 2 players.


*** There are only 3 winners per table, and one of them is the house ***

In many of these NL games, the action begins to dry up because you end up with a whole bunch of type 3 players who are playing tight with short stacks, and no one is busting. Unless a fish comes along and pumps a few hundred bucks into the game, the rake can begin to take a game hostage.

There aren't that many players that beat this game by playing aggressivly and busting other players, which pumps money into the table. So what happens is the 2-3 type 1 players go card dead for a while, the type 3 players don't force enough action, no one buys more chips, the action dries up, the stacks get short and the game becomes incredibly boring. Either wait for a fish to come along or get a table change, because even if you get a card rush, there won't be enough money on the table to take full advantage. This happens A LOT after 3am when the fish have gone home and the game is left with a lot of type 3 players. Just go to bed. Besides, the action is significantly better in the afternoon anyway.

*** Strange Pre-Flop and Post-Flop play ***

This never ceases to baffle me. First of all, there is almost never a third raise preflop. Secondly (and even stranger), the original raiser rarely folds for the re-raise.

This happens constantly: Player A opens the pot for 7-12 (standard), player B pops it for 15-25, and player A just calls. A third raise is almost always AA as nearly all players are reluctant to re-re-raise with JJ, QQ and even KK to find out where they are in the hand. This is a huge mistake, as I have seen countless playes bust when they call a re-raise, flop an overpair or TPTK and then check/call their whole stack on the flop and turn to get beat by aces, when they could have re-raised and mucked to the all-in before the flop (or just mucked to begin with) and saved the rest of their stack. Or player A just calls a re-raise with AK/AQ/AJ/KQ (which also baffles me) and then mucks when they miss the flop. I want to smack some sense into the these players, but why waste my +EV? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

*** Key Hand 1 ***

Note: Any comments/criticism of my play is welcomed and appreciated.

This brought me out of an early hole on Saturday. I open for 15 with Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB calls. He has a large stack. Flop comes 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Check, I bet 25, call. Turn is the Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Now he bets out 100. I have seen him semi-bluff with an Ace-high flush draw in a spot similar to this (he bet out 100 before too), so I beat him into the pot all-in for 30 more. He calls. River comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. My turn read was spot on, he shows A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and is not happy to see my queens full. I had only been at the table for about 2 orbits (dug my early hole at a different table), so it shows the importance of paying close attention early, as I saw his earlier semi-bluff and knew exactly what to do. Although it's doubtful I'm laying down top set against any opponent in that spot...

*** Key Hand 2 ***

A simple hand that was my favorite of the trip, and will illustrate my point about type 3 players very well. I open for 12 in EP with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Player to my left calls, rest fold. Villian appears to be a basic type 3 player. He has ~80. I figure him for a mid pair or AQ/AJ/KQ. Flop comes 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Pretty sweet flop for me in this situation. I check, intending to check-raise, as I know my opponent will value bet his pocket pair and would probably try to steal with two high cards. He bets 15. I glance at his remaining stack, figure there isn't much point in raising him just 30 more, so I move in. He makes an unhappy call and shows 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I smile, knowing I'm a (small) favorite. 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] hits the turn, and he angrily gets up and storms off. I love these type 3 players.

I think this illustrates nicely why these type 3 players lose. I'm a tight player, I rarely raise preflop, and he is in there calling me with 88 (mistake one). Mistake two is calling the all-in. Does he really think I'm going to bluff that with AKo by check-raising? If I was going to do that, I would do it betting, not check-raising, to make his pot odds worse. These types of players don't realize that a small overpair like that does not win big pots.

As for my thinking, he either has 3 hands in this spot: a small set, a small overpair or two big cards that missed. I know he would fold two big cards, and I think there is a decent chance he would muck the overpair, so I have significant folding equity. I'm a small favorite against an overpair anyway, so I'm fine with playing it all in. In the rare chance that the has the set (which a lot of players would check to begin with), I'm not in that horrible shape. So I really like my check-raise, as it is going to win me an extra 15 bucks when he bets out with missed overcards, which this type of player often does.

I know that in this case his call is correct because he has excellent pot odds. The reason I don't like his call is because considering his smalls stack I would often check-raise this flop with QQ-AA to trap his eights and score an extra bet from missed high cards. I'd probably bet AKo, not check it. Since I'm going to be checking a big pair more often than a big flush draw, he is going to be a 9-1 dog for all his money a lot in this spot.

I guess I could write one or two more, but it's late, I'm tired and this post is long enough as it is. Thanks for staying with me, any thoughts/comments would be appreciated, and if you were at the stone playing NL the past 3 days, let me know, I probably played with you =)

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

Interesting... I don't have time for a more thoughtful response now but I wanted to thank you for the post (and bump it up so others might comment). I will try to return later.

C

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

I would also cross post it to the small stakes NL board -- you may get more reaction there... (if you haven't done that already).

[dtbog]

I agree! Great post. I'm a relative regular at that game, and have some strategies of my own, so I'll reply in a minute.

-DB

[dtbog]

PokerFink -

I've played this game every so often since they started spreading it, and I've been constantly trying to put together the best strategy for beating the average TS $1/$2 NL table. Yours is a great analysis -- containing some trends that I've observed and not put into words, and some that are new and make me think about my own observations in entirely different ways.

Our approaches to this game differ slightly in that I try to play a little looser, while still choosing my spots carefully. I'll make some early limps with suited connectors -- to give my limps with hands like AJ less table respect, and to keep alert opponents from realizing that I usually have the goods. I'll sometimes call in LP with 88, 99, etc. against a LAG with a big stack, and I'll often raise hands like suited connectors in LP against predictable opponents.

I've found this style to be effective, provided that I keep two things in mind:

1) don't get carried away trying to play big pots out of position with mediocre holdings that *may* be the best hand (like 98s on a 962r board, AJ when an ace flops against a player who is known to limp AQ, etc etc.)

2) don't decide that I "deserve" to win a pot against a clearly inferior player... don't bluff the unbluffable.

These are pretty basic pieces of advice that should apply to any situation in poker, but almost any losing session I have at the TS $1/$2 NL can be partially attributed to one of these factors. That being said, I'm getting better.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Tight winners: ...
put in good value bets when heads up because people call heads up bets a lot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Amen. People think that heads-up always means "my inferior hand is good". I've employed the overbet many times in these situations, with good results.

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A smart type 1 player understands that TPTK and even two pairs loses big pots, so they don't get all their money in w/o a real monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only time I disagree with this is against a predictable, chip-spewing LAG. If I'm confident that a certain player will pay me off with his TT/JJ/QQ/KQ on a K93r flop, and I have a decent read on his betting patterns, I will go to the felt with my TPTK, and most of the time, I'll be right. Twice in recent memory have I stacked LAGs here with my AK against their KQ.

[ QUOTE ]
There's 7 or 8 other losing players to take money from, so why bother with type 1 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, yes, yes.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Loose winners: ...

They often bluff by betting small, but when the money goes in, they generally have the best of it. They will drag a huge pot with two pairs and you go "wow, how lucky to hit that six on the river to make kings and sixes and win that big pot!" but the key is that 80% of the money went in on the river when they had the best hand, not the turn against the poor sap with AK. If the six hadn't fallen, they wouldent have put the money in. This is why this type of player can win. Table image baby! To beat them, just focus on outkicking them in the small pots and making smart value bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good observation. This is the key -- noting that these players -do- actually know that their K6 is no good until they hit two pair... whereas you know that their two pair still is no good against your set.

I disagree here in that I separate these players based on whether or not they are passive or aggressive, as this tends to make all of the difference.

Against an aggressive player of this type, I'll let him push me around when he bets on a K92 flop with his K6... until I hit a hand, and he continues to value-bet his inferior hand in an attempt to "outplay" me. Cha-ching.

Against a passive player of this type, on the other hand, I'm more inclined to play a smaller pot with TPTK-type hands and fold to any uncharacteristic "I just woke up with two pair on the river" bets, which they don't usually make without their two pair.

[ QUOTE ]
3) The Tight Looser: ...

Stay away from their small value bets with moderate hands, and don't be afraid to overbet when you spike something big, because they interpret big bets as bluffs and will pay you off. These are the players to play big pots against, because they play big pots with stuff like JJ and and TPTK that are sure to lose big pots. In my opinion, spotting these players and distinguishing them from type 1 players (and playing accordingly) is the KEY to beating this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. This is something that I don't think I've appreciated to the appropriate degree until reading your post. One must always consider the case where such a player is tricky -- and at the very least, for example, considers that an overbet may NOT be a bluff... but, for the most part, I agree with you. This is also what happens when Type 1 players go on tilt. Good for the bankroll.


[ QUOTE ]

4) The Total Fish: ...

Don't let variance put you on tilt

[/ QUOTE ]

Truth.

[ QUOTE ]
DON'T confuse these players with type 2 players. If the money goes in and a fish has the best of it after the money goes in and not before, a warning bell should go off that your first impression might have been wrong... and they might know what they are doing after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good advice.



One thing that you didn't touch upon that I've been mulling over is the change that occurs in the game when you've built a reasonable stack. Against some players, your action dries up -- many TS $1/$2 NL players grow wary of anyone who has the capability to bust them on a single hand, and this amounts to the fear of anyone with a higher stack. On the other hand, some stacked players target the others with big stacks, as this clearly presents the opportunity to win the most money at one time. Once you've accumulated a significant stack, profiling and hand reading pay the greatest dividends -- you need to know which big stacks will only play against you with a big hand, and which will take more of a gamble to try to win all of your chips.

Another thing worth discussing about the TS $1/$2 NL is the clues that accompany a player's willingness to part with his money. Watch for players separating their $100 buy-in from the rest of their chips, or friends coming over to check on progress and commenting on "another $150 until I'm back to even!" All of these signs are pieces of the puzzle that will help you deduce how likely a certain player is to put money in the pot in certain situations -- and this goes back to the "choose your spots" mantra, as this is definitely the key to beating this game.

PokerFink -- I greatly appreciate your post! Hopefully with my comments and those of others who play this game, we can keep discussing this slightly bizarre animal that is the TS $1/$2.

With respect to my looser approach to the game, I think it simply adds a degree of variance, and forces me to be confident my reads -- an area in which I'm constantly improving. What do you think?

Also -- if anyone has specific thoughts regarding tables where the open raise is not $7-$12, but $15-17... I'd be curious on your opinions. Personally, this tells me "tighten up or get a table change", but I'm sure some of you have made some appropriate adjustments.

-DB

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Warning: Long post and potentially useless information.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks! You saved me at least 10 minutes already. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Na, really, nice post. Good info for those that can use it.

[PokerFink]

Dtbog - Thanks for the kind words. The TS 1-2NL is definitely a "bizarre animal" and I'm curious as to how 1-2NL games at other casinos compare. I guess I'l find out in a year when I'm 21. Anyway...

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that you didn't touch upon that I've been mulling over is the change that occurs in the game when you've built a reasonable stack. Against some players, your action dries up -- many TS $1/$2 NL players grow wary of anyone who has the capability to bust them on a single hand, and this amounts to the fear of anyone with a higher stack. On the other hand, some stacked players target the others with big stacks, as this clearly presents the opportunity to win the most money at one time. Once you've accumulated a significant stack, profiling and hand reading pay the greatest dividends -- you need to know which big stacks will only play against you with a big hand, and which will take more of a gamble to try to win all of your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

An interesting trend developed for me in the past three days. Each session, I built my stack up over 300 (500 was my biggest), and then my action dried up and I slowly took a 50-100 hit before racking up. Some of this can be attributed to legitimately cold cards that ended each of my sessions, but I was getting zero action on my preflop raises and flop bets when I found something. My 500 stack Sunday turned into 380 because I made some advertising plays to try to get more action, but never took advantage because I went totally card dead for two hours before going to dinner. I noticed players consciously staying away from me once I developed a stack. Whether it was a) They realized I could play or b) They feared my growing stack, I don't know. But my action unquestionably went away once my stack grew over three or four hundred. I will play closer attention to this next time I go.

[ QUOTE ]
The only time I disagree with this is against a predictable, chip-spewing LAG. If I'm confident that a certain player will pay me off with his TT/JJ/QQ/KQ on a K93r flop, and I have a decent read on his betting patterns, I will go to the felt with my TPTK, and most of the time, I'll be right. Twice in recent memory have I stacked LAGs here with my AK against their KQ.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. This wasn't really in my mind because I only ran into 1 LAG player in three days, the guy who bet 100 at me when I had top set queens. He left shortly after. Playing back at LAGs with TPTK, and especially two pairs, is a dangerous but +EV move. Just be very confident in your read.

[ QUOTE ]
Against a passive player of this type (type 2), on the other hand, I'm more inclined to play a smaller pot with TPTK-type hands and fold to any uncharacteristic "I just woke up with two pair on the river" bets, which they don't usually make without their two pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. They bet 10 on the flop, 10 on the turn, and 40 on the river. I see so many players call these bets down with TP, and then bemoan the fact that the villian hit their 3-outer two pairs on the river. They don't understand that the villian was telling you he made his 3-outer by betting 40.

[ QUOTE ]
Also -- if anyone has specific thoughts regarding tables where the open raise is not $7-$12, but $15-17... I'd be curious on your opinions. Personally, this tells me "tighten up or get a table change", but I'm sure some of you have made some appropriate adjustments.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen this happen when the stacks get deeper around the table, usually due to a few fish who pumped several hundred dollars into the other 7-8 players. If I am short stacked at this table, I will try to get a change, but if I'm decently stacked I basically play the same way, and just step up my bets accordingly. I've seen tables where the average stack is more like 250 instead of 150, the preflop bet is 15, but the game plays the exact same way otherwise. Since the TS 1-2NL is no longer a must move table, this does not happen nearly as often as before. This weekend the tables remained consistantly shortstacked, with 2-3 players with 250-500 and everyone else nursing <150. The biggest stack I saw was maybe 600.

[ QUOTE ]
With respect to my looser approach to the game, I think it simply adds a degree of variance, and forces me to be confident my reads -- an area in which I'm constantly improving. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

The advantage I see this giving you is that your table image is looser than mine, and you will recieve action even when your stack grows beyond 300, which I did not. The disadvantage is that if you miss flops for an hour or two, you stand to lose considerably more than I will, since I basically don't play raised pots unless I raised them. Higher variance, but if your reads are on and you aren't paying off other people's small value bets, your winning sessions will potentially be bigger than mine.

[dtbog]

*bump* for other TSers?

-DB

[Falker11]

Great report. I like your player classifications and I agree with them for the most part.
Playing like you suggest in 1. is a great way to get started at this table. Once I have a stack around 300 or 350 however, I love to loosen up quite a bit and play similiar to what you suggest in 2. The reason for this is what has been touched on in this thread already, that is your action starts to dry up once your stack hits about 350. So when you are in a hand, people are less likely to bet into you letting you catch that two pair and taking the pot. And when they see the K8 you played (suited in LP of course) hit the two pair on the turn they will start to give you action again.

I go to school about an hour and a half away from turning stone and I am there fairly often so I hope to see some of you 2+2ers there sometime.
-Falker

[TStoneMBD]

You post indicates to me that you have a very good understanding of whats going on in the 1/2NL games at turningstone. I'm impressed. There are a couple of things I disagree with however. First, type 2 players are usually far more skillful then type 1 players. I pride myself in being a type 2 player. However, most players try to be type 2 players but end up just being a college fish, because it is much easier, and less skillful to just play rocktight. Type 2 players will win more money in the long run if they know what theyre doing. Also, I'm not so certain I agree with your opinion on the player with pocket 88s. His preflop call is probably very incorrect with a shortstack, but maybe he thought 6 players were going to come in behind him with a call as well. Most players in those games cant fold pocket 88s for an opening raise, but yes you are correct to assume that this is usually stupidity. After the flop however, he has committed himself to the pot. Folding to your checkraise is pretty silly at this point and he would have to be pretty sure that you do in fact have the overpair in order to make this laydown. There are so many college fishes that would make this play with KJ. You said he made the call reluctantly, and that was probably his only option.

Make sure that you TStoners say hi next time youre in town. I'm a regular in the 20/40 game. I'm the young kid at the table, and my initials up on the board are MBD.