Easy folds?

oscark · #1 12-16-2004, 07:18 PM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.66 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 2.83 BB

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (4 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG+1 folds, Button folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

River: (10 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13 BB

ReMMy · #2 12-16-2004, 07:25 PM

Why would you bet the river then fold to a raise on the second hand? You can't really expect to get called by a worse hand that often, you'll never fold another flush, and you open yourself up to a raise from someone w/ a higher flush which you then fold to? Check call instead. Not only do you get to see a showdown but you may also inspire a bluff from a non flush hand.

On your first hand the leadout is rather suspicous and depending on multiple factors you may sometimes want to raise there. Calling is not really a viable option.

ReMMy

ddubois · #3 12-16-2004, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can't really expect to get called by a worse hand that often

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I agree with this. Many hands without a heart will crying call that river.

oscark · #4 12-16-2004, 07:34 PM

I thought he was screaming 3, which I don't think most will throw away on the river.

Billy Baroo · #5 12-16-2004, 07:39 PM

Whether or not you should call or fold on these hands depends on both how your opponents play and how they think you play. Since you did not include this sort of information in your post, it seems as if you are more interested in finding a default play for these types of situations. However, not knowing the correct default play for these types of situations is a far smaller leak than not paying enough attention to know how your opponents play and how they think you play (and even how they think you think they play).

Hand 1 is a perfect example of this. Does the BB rarely check/raise? Does the BB think you're weak? Does the BB bet into a lot of flops shorthanded? Does the BB fold to a raise without a substantial hand? I don't think you can figure out the "correct" play without having at least partial answers to some of these questions.

LarsVegas · #6 12-16-2004, 07:52 PM

"I don't think you can figure out the "correct" play without having at least partial answers to some of these questions."

Oh yes, we could easily discuss and perhaps even discover what is the best play against DEFAULT opponents here, without knowing lots of things.

While hand 2 is more a "hand" where people may agree or disagree on a few of the actions taken, hand 1 merely illustrates a concept. Getting rid of overcards on a badly missed flop early.

I for one tend to use this concept a bit, and agree with the fold in hand 1. This doesn't make you weak at all. Actually, the ONLY standard raising hand preflop which doesn't stand being bet into on a J-9-8 twotone flop, is AK (even that is debateable with a backdoor flush). But AK without any backdoorflush possibilities is gone in my book here. AA-88, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ are not.

lars

ReMMy · #7 12-16-2004, 07:53 PM

By that often, I meant often enough to make it worthwhile.

Any heart call will beat you. By betting and folding to a raise you don't get to see the showdown on a large pot. So the options look like this for betting out:

1. Get called by a worse hand - GOOD!
2. Get called by a better hand - BAD!
3. Fold a worse hand that might have bluffed if you checked - BAD!
4. Get raised by a worse hand and fold - BAD!

Now if you know 99% that a player won't bet/raise the river without a flush you eliminate the last 2 options, but its still not a super profitable bet. Considering that you usually don't know I'd rather check/call.

ReMMy

Stork · #8 12-16-2004, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. Get called by a worse hand - GOOD!

[/ QUOTE ]
This will happen more often than you think.
[ QUOTE ]
2. Get called by a better hand - BAD!

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe so, but it costs you the same as check/calling would.
[ QUOTE ]
3. Fold a worse hand that might have bluffed if you checked - BAD!

[/ QUOTE ]
True, but it doesn't compensate for the times you get called by a worse hand, plus the few times you may get something like the lone 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to fold.
[ QUOTE ]
4. Get raised by a worse hand and fold - BAD!

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't picture this happening at all.